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LiPo Battery Warning!!!


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#121 Vamp2269

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Posted 21 April 2010 - 08:50 PM

I don't know anything about this but couldn't the MAH and A rating on the battery affect how much the voltage dips when the gun is drawing current. Lipos voltage doesnt drop as much as a nicad or nimh so different batterry types do have an effect. thats why 7.4v lipos perform better than 8.4v nicads or nimh. so couldnt the MAH and A ratings be a factor in this too. A lipo batterry with a larger MAH and A rating is generally the same size and wieght as a lipo with a lower MAH and A rating so there has to be some change in the makeup in the batterry though it may be slight and not changing the ingredients that compose of the batterys. Couldnt that effect how much voltage actualy gets to the motor when the gun is being fired and current is being drawn.

so lets say for a theoretical example(my thought expirement) a 11.1v 1600MAH 15A battery's voltage drops down to 9v when current is being drawn and a 11.1v 22MAH 55A batterry's voltage only drops down to 10.5v when current is being drawn from it. There is more actual voltage being exerted while discharging with the battery with a higher MAH and A rating so wouldnt that batterry create a little more wear and tear on the gearbox.

That is my theory on why 11.1v 1600MAH 15A or 20A batterys are recomended for optimal performance V. Durability.
Also, it is why all three variables must be taken into account to determine the rate of fire that a battery can produce in an AEG like Alizard said. I have taken what I read and put my deduction here that is what I came up with.

I rest my case. :gun:

Edited by Vamp2269, 21 April 2010 - 08:59 PM.


#122 Guest_NumenoreanBlood_*

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 03:50 PM

View PostVamp2269, on 21 April 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:

I don't know anything about this but couldn't the MAH and A rating on the battery affect how much the voltage dips when the gun is drawing current. Lipos voltage doesnt drop as much as a nicad or nimh so different batterry types do have an effect. thats why 7.4v lipos perform better than 8.4v nicads or nimh. so couldnt the MAH and A ratings be a factor in this too. A lipo batterry with a larger MAH and A rating is generally the same size and wieght as a lipo with a lower MAH and A rating so there has to be some change in the makeup in the batterry though it may be slight and not changing the ingredients that compose of the batterys. Couldnt that effect how much voltage actualy gets to the motor when the gun is being fired and current is being drawn.

so lets say for a theoretical example(my thought expirement) a 11.1v 1600MAH 15A battery's voltage drops down to 9v when current is being drawn and a 11.1v 22MAH 55A batterry's voltage only drops down to 10.5v when current is being drawn from it. There is more actual voltage being exerted while discharging with the battery with a higher MAH and A rating so wouldnt that batterry create a little more wear and tear on the gearbox.

That is my theory on why 11.1v 1600MAH 15A or 20A batterys are recomended for optimal performance V. Durability.
Also, it is why all three variables must be taken into account to determine the rate of fire that a battery can produce in an AEG like Alizard said. I have taken what I read and put my deduction here that is what I came up with.

I rest my case. :gun:


The thing that you must realize is that they test the guns with a power supply, not a battery, as was said by one of the staff members earlier in this thread.  The power supply wouldn't really see any drop at all.  That means that whatever the actual voltage from the battery is, the guns are tested to handle an actual 11.1v current.  No matter how good of a LiPo you get, the HIGHEST POSSIBLE voltage that you can get is 11.1v, if not slightly less.  So, if they test them with 11.1v ACTUAL, why should a battery that is generating the same, if not lower, be able to damage the gun?  In all honesty, I think that it is because the stats listed for the gun is EXACTALLY the same as what they sell in the Pro Shop.  It wouldn't really matter what LiPo you get, the gun will work just fine all the same.  Isn't this like why the cookie recipe on the back of the chocolate chips ALWAYS calls for the nuts made by the same brand?  We all know that any other brand will do.  There's nothing wrong with them wanting people to buy their battery, but I think that a simple "LiPo Ready" and "Works Great With KWA Batteries" would achieve the same goal, without making people being scared to buy a better battery.  

Sorry to KWA if I got your reasoning wrong, I'm just calling it as I see it.  I have only the greatest respect for the brand name, and I'm not trying to bash it in any way.

#123 Vamp2269

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Posted 22 April 2010 - 06:04 PM

View PostNumenoreanBlood, on 22 April 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

The thing that you must realize is that they test the guns with a power supply, not a battery, as was said by one of the staff members earlier in this thread.  The power supply wouldn't really see any drop at all.  That means that whatever the actual voltage from the battery is, the guns are tested to handle an actual 11.1v current.  No matter how good of a LiPo you get, the HIGHEST POSSIBLE voltage that you can get is 11.1v, if not slightly less.  So, if they test them with 11.1v ACTUAL, why should a battery that is generating the same, if not lower, be able to damage the gun?  In all honesty, I think that it is because the stats listed for the gun is EXACTALLY the same as what they sell in the Pro Shop.  It wouldn't really matter what LiPo you get, the gun will work just fine all the same.  Isn't this like why the cookie recipe on the back of the chocolate chips ALWAYS calls for the nuts made by the same brand?  We all know that any other brand will do.  There's nothing wrong with them wanting people to buy their battery, but I think that a simple "LiPo Ready" and "Works Great With KWA Batteries" would achieve the same goal, without making people being scared to buy a better battery.  

Sorry to KWA if I got your reasoning wrong, I'm just calling it as I see it.  I have only the greatest respect for the brand name, and I'm not trying to bash it in any way.

Ya that makes sense i guess it realy just doesn't matter

#124 Guest_Zelda_*

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 02:58 PM

Would you guys say that an 11.1v 1900mah 22c Lipo is much more dangerous than what is recommended by KWA? I have one, but recently stripped a piston and bevel gear using it, and Im just wondering, is this battery way to powerful, or is it in the same ballpark as what KWA recommends? Is a 22c much faster than a 15 or 20c?

Thanks

Edited by Zelda, 06 May 2010 - 02:59 PM.


#125 gcw360

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Posted 06 May 2010 - 03:08 PM

View PostZelda, on 06 May 2010 - 02:58 PM, said:

Would you guys say that an 11.1v 1900mah 22c Lipo is much more dangerous than what is recommended by KWA? I have one, but recently stripped a piston and bevel gear using it, and Im just wondering, is this battery way to powerful, or is it in the same ballpark as what KWA recommends? Is a 22c much faster than a 15 or 20c?

Thanks
22c x 1900mah = 41.8 amps continuous. That's over twice the power rating that KWA recommends. :gun:

#126 Guest_Zelda_*

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Posted 07 May 2010 - 08:06 PM

View Postgcw360, on 06 May 2010 - 03:08 PM, said:

22c x 1900mah = 41.8 amps continuous. That's over twice the power rating that KWA recommends. :gun:

Ha, wow, looks like I'll be needing a new battery.

Thanks

#127 greatwatermelon

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 02:30 PM

For 7.4v lipo's, the recommended amps is the same as 11.1v. However, the rate of fire is much slower with a 7.4v opposed to a 11.1v. So if I want to up the ROF with a 7.4v, would be using a 7.4v 2000mah 40A lipo be too much?

#128 gcw360

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Posted 12 May 2010 - 05:47 PM

View Postgreatwatermelon, on 12 May 2010 - 02:30 PM, said:

For 7.4v lipo's, the recommended amps is the same as 11.1v. However, the rate of fire is much slower with a 7.4v opposed to a 11.1v. So if I want to up the ROF with a 7.4v, would be using a 7.4v 2000mah 40A lipo be too much?

Answered on the other thread.:sigh:

#129 greatwatermelon

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Posted 14 May 2010 - 05:11 PM

View Postgcw360, on 12 May 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

Answered on the other thread.:sigh:

:P Yeah, I was desperate. I needed an answer fast, since I was about to order a few 7.4v lipo's. Thanks for the help.

Edited by greatwatermelon, 14 May 2010 - 05:12 PM.


#130 Kaoru

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 07:27 PM

I thought that the motor pulls the amperage, the battery doesn't push it. So if a motor requires 15 amps, all it will take is 15. How will having 20 extra amps available damage the gun?

Edited by Kaoru, 26 May 2010 - 07:28 PM.


#131 vsquared

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Posted 26 May 2010 - 09:57 PM

View PostKaoru, on 26 May 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

I thought that the motor pulls the amperage, the battery doesn't push it. So if a motor requires 15 amps, all it will take is 15. How will having 20 extra amps available damage the gun?

You'll get arcing at the trigger assembly, which will lead to carbon deposits on your contacts, which will lead to buying a new wiring harness. With lesser motors there is also the danger of burning it out with a high current rating, but you generally don't have to worry about that with KWA motors, since they're rock solid.

#132 Vamp2269

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Posted 10 June 2010 - 12:24 PM

So current rating dosen't do much to the ROF but too High of a current rating will do damge to the wiring, right?

#133 ahadsz

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 04:31 AM

Ok, well these new batteries came out on GI. There better then lipos (safer) but, have about the same voltage. Would this be good for a KWA or will it still cause premature wear and tear. http://www.airsoftgi...roducts_id=5806

#134 whiterabbit05

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:27 AM

It's a 9.6v, it'll run fine in a KWA.

#135 xKingSizex

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:36 PM

View Postwhiterabbit05, on 22 July 2010 - 11:27 AM, said:

It's a 9.6v, it'll run fine in a KWA.

CORRECTION: The battery is a 40C discharge rate...not recommended to go over 15C!

#136 whiterabbit05

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:12 PM

I didn't look at the C rating.

However, I still believe it will run fine in a KWA.  The C rating is just the battery's safe discharge capability.  The motor will determine the current draw.  

For example, given a motor that can pull 30A and three batteries:

Battery A is rated at 11.1v 1500 maH 15C
Battery B is rated at 11.1v 1500 maH 30C
Battery C is rated at 11.1v 1500 maH 40C

This means that Battery A can supply up to 22.5A, Battery B can supply up to 45A, and Battery C can supply up to 60A.  If you use Battery A, your motor will be performing under its potential (22.5A < 30A) and I suppose because of this, less wear will take place.  The caveat here is that trying to draw 30A from a battery that can only supply 22.5A can cause it to overheat and fail prematurely, or worse.  Overheating may also be possible because lower C rated batteries have higher internal resistance.

If you use Battery B, your motor can now perform at its full potential of 30A with 15A of spare room.  This can arguably cause more wear now that the motor is running faster, but only because it was starving for power in the first place.  Even then, the motor is not going to require 30A the whole time unless what it requires to run is 30A minimum, which I doubt AEG motors need.

Furthermore, if you use Battery C, the wear will be the same as using Battery B since only 30A will still be pulled by the motor, you just now have 30A of spare discharge in the battery.  An analogy that can be used is a car's alternator, just because the alternator is rated at 120 amps does not mean it is outputting this, it depends on what the car's needs are and what pull is required of it.

So my conclusion is that the voltage of a battery determines how fast a motor runs more than its C rating, 9.6v will always be 9.6v no matter what battery it is.  Therefore, that Madbull 9.6v LFP at 40C should run fine in a KWA.  If fact, I would argue that it would cause less wear than an 11.v LiPo rated at 15C.

It's better to have a high C rating, especially if you decide to upgrade to high power springs and motors later on which require a high draw to run.  Too low of a C rating can be dangerous, as detailed above.  Use a properly rated fuse if a high C rating still worries you.

This is how I understand it after doing much reading and information gathering and from past car audio and RC knowledge.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Edited by whiterabbit05, 22 July 2010 - 02:57 PM.


#137 whiterabbit05

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:14 PM

Another reason to not depend on the C rating is because they are often times very inaccurate measures.  The actual C rating of a battery can differ widely from what is labeled on the package.

Edited by whiterabbit05, 22 July 2010 - 03:01 PM.


#138 xKingSizex

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:04 PM

You are correct that a lot of the labels are incorrect, and I'm not going to get in a discussion about the motor drawing what it needs. We have seen more motor failure coming from a battery with a high C rating vs. the lower C rated battery. Will the battery work, absolutely. We do not feel, from our experiences, that the high C rated batteries are good for the gun and therefore do not recommend using them. Using anything out of spec of the manufacture recommendations also void the warranty, so use this battery at your own discretion.

#139 whiterabbit05

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 05:49 PM

I understand from a business stand point why you would not recommend going above a certain battery rating, and I respect that.

I'm certainly not a professional or expert but do like to draw from my knowledge and experience to give advice and help others.  As with all advice on the internet, it's free, so use it at your own risk.

Edited by whiterabbit05, 22 July 2010 - 05:50 PM.


#140 philstar

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 05:08 PM

View Postwhiterabbit05, on 22 July 2010 - 02:12 PM, said:

I didn't look at the C rating.

However, I still believe it will run fine in a KWA.  The C rating is just the battery's safe discharge capability.  The motor will determine the current draw.  

For example, given a motor that can pull 30A and three batteries:

Battery A is rated at 11.1v 1500 maH 15C
Battery B is rated at 11.1v 1500 maH 30C
Battery C is rated at 11.1v 1500 maH 40C

This means that Battery A can supply up to 22.5A, Battery B can supply up to 45A, and Battery C can supply up to 60A.  If you use Battery A, your motor will be performing under its potential (22.5A < 30A) and I suppose because of this, less wear will take place.  The caveat here is that trying to draw 30A from a battery that can only supply 22.5A can cause it to overheat and fail prematurely, or worse.  Overheating may also be possible because lower C rated batteries have higher internal resistance.

If you use Battery B, your motor can now perform at its full potential of 30A with 15A of spare room.  This can arguably cause more wear now that the motor is running faster, but only because it was starving for power in the first place.  Even then, the motor is not going to require 30A the whole time unless what it requires to run is 30A minimum, which I doubt AEG motors need.

Furthermore, if you use Battery C, the wear will be the same as using Battery B since only 30A will still be pulled by the motor, you just now have 30A of spare discharge in the battery.  An analogy that can be used is a car's alternator, just because the alternator is rated at 120 amps does not mean it is outputting this, it depends on what the car's needs are and what pull is required of it.

So my conclusion is that the voltage of a battery determines how fast a motor runs more than its C rating, 9.6v will always be 9.6v no matter what battery it is.  Therefore, that Madbull 9.6v LFP at 40C should run fine in a KWA.  If fact, I would argue that it would cause less wear than an 11.v LiPo rated at 15C.

It's better to have a high C rating, especially if you decide to upgrade to high power springs and motors later on which require a high draw to run.  Too low of a C rating can be dangerous, as detailed above.  Use a properly rated fuse if a high C rating still worries you.

This is how I understand it after doing much reading and information gathering and from past car audio and RC knowledge.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

I posted a reply to a similar topic in another thread:  http://www.kwausa.co...opic=1358&st=20

To summarize, high current batteries produce higher voltage under load than low current batteries.  Your right that all 3 cell lipos produce the same voltage without any load.  Under load, however, higher internal resistance causes low current lipos causes a higher voltage drop.

philstar




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