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Let's Talk Long Range


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#61 tumtumsdmon

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Posted 11 May 2014 - 05:49 PM

View Postvanevery, on 10 May 2014 - 04:30 PM, said:

CQR Mod1:

Bucking:
- Start off with the Lonex 50 Degree.
- Move up to the Lonex 70 Degree.
- Try a G&G Green, these are great for long range as well.

Cylinder:
- The Cylinder is a Type 3 or 4.
- There is just not enough air to push a bb out of a 509mm Inner Barrel.
I am very surprised you are getting the results you are getting, that you can shoot that far.
- You need to change out the Cylinder.
Since you need to open the Gearbox to do this, go ahead and choose a Full/Type-O Cylinder.

BB's:
Use quality heavy ammo of at least .30 for long range shooting.
.32 and up, preferably.

I like your testing method of measuring off distance and working your way back from the target.
This makes sense and I appreciate your common sense.
Too often people begin their testing at 300' or something.
My method now is to almost always begin at 10 yards out and move back every ten yards.
Then get dialed in at 50 yards making sure 10 of every 10 shots are on target at very tight groupings.
Then move every 10 yards back until I reach max distance.


Hey thanks Vanevery for the reply! I will certainly try those different buckings. I am planning to go to airsoft gi next weekend and pick up a few stuff! I'll probably pick up the buckings and some heavier bbs. I will see what I can do with the budget I have!

As for the cylinder, I understand that a type-0 or full cylinder will give better volume into the gun to get better range, but I was still hoping to still have my gun shoot 350 fps. So would I need to downgrade my spring as well? Also, what brand cylinder do you suggest? I know I shouldn't be getting those "ribbed" cage ones as you said in your other post.

Either way, I will try the upgrades you suggested! I will post up my results when I get everything together! Thanks Vanevery! Keep up the good work! :D

Edited by tumtumsdmon, 11 May 2014 - 05:51 PM.


#62 vanevery

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Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:49 PM

The Full/Type-0 Cylinder will solve a lot of shooting performance problems your gun is having.

In regards to fps, Full.Type-0 Cylinders will usually drop your fps 10-15fps.
This is due to to the added volume of air slowing the Piston Head down as it returns to rest position.
The benefit of the added air volume is longer shots and ability to use heavy ammo, so don't be fooled by some idea of higher fps that a ported Cylinder can produce being better, for long range that is.
A 509mm Inner Barrel is good, but you will shoot farther and more accurate with a 455mm.

As far as a Cylinder, any Full/Type-0 Cylinder will do.
I do not liked ribbed body Cylinders, but I would not let that dissuade you from purchasing one if it is somehow more convenient to purchase one for whatever reason. Ribbed Body Cylinders interfere with my Dremel polishing methods and sound signature mods I like to implement sometimes.
Stay away from teflon coated Cylinders as they add nothing to performance and the coating will erode down over time.

Stay on course and keep us updated.
Remember to use a quality Bucking or nothing else you do to your gun matters.

Edited by vanevery, 16 May 2014 - 05:14 PM.


#63 philippe07024

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 09:08 AM

Mr. V.,
Here are my setup so far for my KWA SR10:
1. Quality heavy ammo:       Evike .32g bio
2. Hop-up Unit: Bucking:   Lonex 70 Degree. No other mod in this section.
3. 455mm Inner Barrel:        MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb.
4. Full / Type-O Cylinder: VFC cylinder (very polished finish)
5. Scope and Bi-pod:       NC Star 3-9x50E Scope and Scar Type Vertical Support Tactical Bi-pod Grip
6. Barrel lock-Down / Vibration Control: minimal so far: a piece of paper to lock the inner barrel from moving at the flash hider, nothing on hop up for now.

Comments and observation:
-As mentioned in a previous post, after installation of the full/ type 0 cylinder I noticed a 10-15fps loss. I am at 345-350 with .25g.
-The Lonex bucking is quite tedious to install. I had cut my previous Lonex 50 to fit. (I did not cut the Lonex 70 as I contemplate doing the Teflon mod.) The bucking is too thick and it stretches a lot when inserting it on the inner barrel in the hop-up unit. This resulted in close to 1mm of the bucking showing in the C clip location. The C clip could not fit really well.
-When shooting, the BBs started to curve down around 120 feet. I believe the effect of the hop-up was not sufficient: for example I could not setup the hop up for the BBS to curve up. It must be linked to a bad installation of the hop up discussed in previous note.

Advice and suggestions are welcome.

Philippe

Edited by philippe07024, 19 May 2014 - 03:11 PM.


#64 vanevery

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:34 PM

View Postphilippe07024, on 19 May 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Mr. V.,
Here are my setup so far for my KWA SR10:
1. Quality heavy ammo:    Evike .32g bio
2. Hop-up Unit: Bucking:   Lonex 70 Degree. No other mod in this section.
3. 455mm Inner Barrel: MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb.
4. Full / Type-O Cylinder: VFC cylinder (very polished finish)
5. Scope and Bi-pod:    NC Star 3-9x50E Scope and Scar Type Vertical Support Tactical Bi-pod Grip
6. Barrel lock-Down / Vibration Control: minimal so far: a piece of paper to lock the inner barrel from moving at the flash hider, nothing on hop up for now.

Comments and observation:
-As mentioned in a previous post, after installation of the full/ type 0 cylinder I noticed a 10-15fps loss. I am at 345-350 with .25g.
-The Lonex bucking is quite tedious to install. I had cut my previous Lonex 50 to fit. (I did not cut the Lonex 70 as I contemplate doing the Teflon mod.) The bucking is too thick and it stretches a lot when inserting it on the inner barrel in the hop-up unit. This resulted in close to 1mm of the bucking showing in the C clip location. The C clip could not fit really well.
-When shooting, the BBs started to curve down around 120 feet. I believe the effect of the hop-up was not sufficient: for example I could not setup the hop up for the BBS to curve up. It must be linked to a bad installation of the hop up discussed in previous note.

Advice and suggestions are welcome.

Philippe
Good job on the effort you have put in your gun build so far.
Once everything gets dialed in, you will love the shooting performance of your gun.
BTW: Did you replace the stock Piston Head O-ring with a better one?

Also: Forget Barrel Lock-Down for now. Save that for latter.
Focus your efforts on everything shooting great with the free-float Hop-up and then come back later to Barrel Lock-Down. Barrel Lock-Down is more involved with free-float Hop-ups.
If you have multiple ? due to your gun not performing like it should or like you expect at the moment, it is better to remove added variables that can trip you up along the way.
I shoot 330' and farther with no Barrel Lock-Down at all, so that is not the primary thing to think about.

Ammo:
The ammo you chose is terrible.
MATRIX / EVIKE brand is notorious for issues, especially with their bb's.
These bb's will simply cause you problems, especially their bio's.

Lonex 70 Degree Bucking:
Be very patient with installing the Lonex 70 Degree Bucking.
it will go in, it will go in properly, and it will perform amazingly well.

I always use 100% Pure Silicone oil to install this bucking.
I use Team Associated 30wt Shock-Oil.
http://www.ebay.com/...=item2339f14bb2
Swab some in the Hop-up Tube and on the Bucking.
Remember, I use a Mega Teflon Mod.
So if I can get this Bucking in the KWA Hop-up Unit properly with the massive added thickness of the Teflon Tape, you can get it in there in stock form.
Advice:
- You must do this with the Hop-up Unit dis-assembled, or forget about it ever working right.

- Swab Hop-up Tube and Bucking with the Pure Silicone oil.

- Insert slowly but aggressively.

- Push it through the open C-clip area and stop at the entrance to the Hop-up Unit.

- This will now be the hardest part, but is much easier than you think.

- Simply push really hard and the Bucking will slip right in.

- At this moment, do not go all the way to the end. Just push it in a few mm's.

- Stop, pull back a bit, then push forward again.
If you push all the way from the start, then the Bucking Lips may slide back over the Inner Barrel.
This is why I push forward a few mm's, then stop and come back a bit, then push forward again.
Do this at least three times until you get all the way forward to the end.

- When I reach the end of the Hop-up Unit where the Bucking Lips seat, I will then pull back a mm or two a handfull of times and then push all the way forward again. This always makes sure the Bucking Lips get seated correctly.

I install this Bucking all the time.
I have 5 KWA guns at the moment that belong to Customers in my condo right now, just finished one of them.
I just installed a Lonex 70 Degree in the one I finished and will install Lonex 70 Degrees in the remaining four guns and all will have the Mega Teflon Mod.
It can be done, it is not as hard as you think.
The first time will always seem to take forever.
Remember, dis-assemble the Hop-up Unit t do this or forget about it ever working.

#65 Pyro_Buster

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Posted 19 May 2014 - 10:46 PM

Hey vanevery. I've been lurking this post quite a bit for awhile now and have a couple questions. So I feel I have most of the basics to begin a simple long range gun (not necessarily a DMR). I have an SR10 with a Madbull 6.03 455mm, M120 long, Maple Leaf 70, and my compression is Gucci. The only thing I think I really want to change at the moment is the cylinder as I still have a my stock. I've been reading what you and everyone else have to say, and I realise I need to get a full/type 0. However, I've never seen anyone recommend a brand. Are there good ones and bad ones, or is it really whatever works? Also, anything else you'd recommend to my SR10 as far as internals go? I was originally going to install an M150, but my local tech said a guy comes in once a month to replace his gearbox shell and have another M150 installed because his she'll keeps cracking. What's your take on that?

#66 cellistle

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:23 AM

Hello Vanevery. I taped a baking pan (about 2' by 2') 250 ft away into a forest with clear shots. I have marked off every 50 feet. Here are the 3 things I have tried so far (always with lonex 70) in my sr10.
1. Flat hopped with conclave nub
2. Flat hopped with homemade nub
3. Un-modded lonex 70 with the nub that it came with.
I didn't notice a single bit of difference between them except for with the homemade nub. I had a pink eraser that I cut to size. All 3 of them would shoot to about 150 feet with 100% accuracy. Moving to 200 feet It was seemingly near impossible to hit at that point. I sighted in my red dot to 150 feet. Aiming above didn't seem to help very much. With the homemade nub I noticed the best accuracy, however right about 150 feet the bbs would suddenly start curving hard to the left.
What would you recommend my next step to be here?

KWA sr10 + G&G .28s

#67 philippe07024

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

Mr V,
As usual, thank you for the prompt and helpful answers.
My answers/comments are below. Your answers are in italic.

Good job on the effort you have put in your gun build so far.
Thank you.

BTW: Did you replace the stock Piston Head O-ring with a better one?
Actually, I have just ordered Danco #14 O-Rings yesterday based on reviewing other posts of yours in other threads/forums. I felt the compression could be better when moving manually the piston in the cylinder. As a side note, I also felt that the VFC cylinder + stock cylinder head fitting and maybe sealing could be improved: the cylinder head was coming out really easily of the cylinder.

Also: Forget Barrel Lock-Down for now. Save that for latter.
OK, one thing at a time.

MATRIX / EVIKE brand is notorious for issues, especially with their bb's.
These bb's will simply cause you problems, especially their bio's.

Noted. I have Elite Force MILSIM Max Bio 0.32g that just arrived.

Be very patient with installing the Lonex 70 Degree Bucking.
.
..
Thank you for the procedure. I actually starting to do these steps by my own trial and error yesterday evening. So far, I still have little bit of the bucking showing in the C-clip window: is it expected?
Attached File  photo 3-1.jpg   353.58K   1 downloads

UPDATE 05/21: after continuing moving the barrel as described in Mr.v.'s post, the bucking ended fitting totally in the hop up unit. The C clip is not 100% back in place in a nice tight fit, it seems the barrel is a little forward or where is should be. Part of the lost fps was re-gained: the gun shoots at 355fps w/ 0.25g BBs.
I look forward taking the gun out to check that the effect of the hop up improved.

Philippe

Edited by philippe07024, 21 May 2014 - 04:31 AM.


#68 vanevery

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 12:52 PM

View PostPyro_Buster, on 19 May 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Hey vanevery. I've been lurking this post quite a bit for awhile now and have a couple questions. So I feel I have most of the basics to begin a simple long range gun (not necessarily a DMR). I have an SR10 with a Madbull 6.03 455mm, M120 long, Maple Leaf 70°, and my compression is Gucci. The only thing I think I really want to change at the moment is the cylinder as I still have a my stock. I've been reading what you and everyone else have to say, and I realise I need to get a full/type 0. However, I've never seen anyone recommend a brand. Are there good ones and bad ones, or is it really whatever works? Also, anything else you'd recommend to my SR10 as far as internals go? I was originally going to install an M150, but my local tech said a guy comes in once a month to replace his gearbox shell and have another M150 installed because his she'll keeps cracking. What's your take on that?
Pyro
I would say you are looking pretty good so far.
What you need to decide is just how far you are willing to go with the little things that collectively make for farther shooting shots.

A few Suggestions:
- Quality Heavy Ammo of at least .32 and up.

- Full / Type-0 Cylinder.

- Cylinder/Cylinder Head Sealant Mod. This is a difference maker, but only when done right.

- Quality Ported Piston Head:
G&G Aluminum Ported Piston Head is my go to Piston Head for Long Range.
Pair this with a Viton X-ring and watch out now brotha!

- Mega Teflon Mod:
This really helps with vibration control and seems to have a way of calming the bb down, especially in high power set-ups.

- Bucking:
I cannot speak for the Maple Leaf Bucking, but I can for the Lonex 70 degree Bucking, especially for long range.
It s worth a try if you have not already

- Barrel Lock-Down:
This is always great, but not always necessary depending on the range you intend to shoot.
Save this for last and get everything else down to a science first.
It is also more involved to lock down a free float moving barrel. It also must be done right, or it will never work.

Cylinder:
Really makes no difference.
My go to Full/Type-0 Cylinder are the ZCI's from Clandestine Airsoft.
http://www.clandesti...pe-0-p-440.html
The one in the picture is somewhat of a ribbed body, but the ones I have ordered in the past did not have the ribs, not that it makes a difference.
Just ordered 4 more of these as we speak, and they are in shipment now.
I would stay away form Teflon coated and possibly Anodized coatings as well.
There is no possible benefit to either coating inside of a Cylinder.

M150 Spring:
You are fine with m150's.
I have used many and installed one in a customers KWA gun.
You can always radius the Cylinder Windows in your Gearbox Shells.
I do this in all my guns.

I would highly suggest an Irregular Pitch m150 vs a Linear m150 Spring.
My only concern with the m150 would be a Linear Spring paired with a 3gx Cylinder Head.
Recently, a 3gx Cylinder Nozzle fractured in two different 3gx Cylinder Heads using MadBull Linear Springs, and these Cylinder Head had Added Sorbo Protection.
One being an m150 and one being an m130. I had to source 2gx Cylinder Heads to replace them and have heard of no issues so far.

Edited by vanevery, 20 May 2014 - 01:18 PM.


#69 Pyro_Buster

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Posted 20 May 2014 - 03:23 PM

Thank you very much. Glad I'm on the right path. The only remaining question I have is regarding the cylinder/cylinder head sealant mod. I haven't heard of this and after a brief google I couldn't really find it. Could you give a quick run down and possibly a link?

#70 vanevery

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:42 AM

View PostPyro_Buster, on 20 May 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Thank you very much. Glad I'm on the right path. The only remaining question I have is regarding the cylinder/cylinder head sealant mod. I haven't heard of this and after a brief google I couldn't really find it. Could you give a quick run down and possibly a link?
Cylinder/ Cylinder Head Sealant Mod.
Commonly referred to as a Gasket Sealant Mod.

This mod finishes perfect air seal inside the Cylinder between the Cylinder Head and Cylinder.
It involves using a Bonding Agent between the Cylinder Head and Cylinder.
http://i1266.photobu...zpsa4f50000.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zps613c34bc.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zpscc9ea971.jpg
I have used two different types of Gasket Sealant, Pure Silicone Bond, GOOP, and Epoxy.
All will work, Gasket Sealant so far may have proven the best in my experience.
Note: Never use SuperGlue for this modification.

This modification creates a seal that allows no air to escape through the edges of the Cylinder Head where it meets the Cylinder. You will not realize just how much air is leaking until you do this modification.
In short barrel guns, you can/will  notice a dramatic increase in FPS as well as shooting performance
In longer barrel guns, it will not be such a difference in fps readings, but a noticeable difference in over-all range and distance.
http://i1266.photobu...zps9da485e2.jpg

This modification is more involved than meets the eye.
There are guides and tutorials out there regarding this modification, but all seem to fall short of covering all the necessary steps for successful completion.
I will briefly try to fill in the gaps.
1. Cleanliness.
- This mod can get messy.
Very important to not allow he Bonding Agent to go where it is not supposed to be.

2. Use a slow Drying /slow Curing Bonding Agent.
This will make the install process and the clean up much easier.

3. Lube the inner and outer Cylinder Nozzle.
Most likely, the Bonding Agent will seep into the Cylinder Nozzle.
Lubrication will prevent the Bonding Agent from sticking.

4. Preliminary clean up.
Once the Bonding Agent is applied and the Cylinder Head is set by hand inside the Cylinder, it is important to clean up any Bonding Agent hat may have made its way to somewhere it is not intended to be.
- Outer Cylinder
- Cylinder Walls
- Inside the Cylinder Nozzle
- Outside Cylinder Nozzle
Using cotton swabs and Acetone will clean the Bonding Agent right up.

5. Proper Setting.
To properly set the Cylinder Head inside the Cylinder and allow everything to Cure in proper place, you need to set the Cylinder Assembly in the Gearbox Shell.
This requires:
- Light to medium Main Spring.
- Spring Guide.
- Old or test only Piston.
- Old or test only Piston Head. Never use the Piston Head you intend to use for the gun build.
- Cylinder with Cylinder Head.
- Lock the Gearbox Shells down with at least two screws.

6. Cure Time:
Now that everything is setting correctly, you need to allow for proper Cure-time.
Drying and curing are not the same thing. Typically, 72 hours is a good baseline to go by.
Anything that involves Bonding Agents always gets a 72 hour Cure-time in my airsoft guns.
Note:
It is important to open up the Gearbox Shells and check everything at least once every 24 hour, during the 72 hour Cure-time. This is due to the fact that Bonding Agent can seep out as pressure is applied from the Piston Head, Piston and Main Spring. A good cleaning with cotton swabs and Acetone at least once, maybe twice every 24 hours during the Cure-time will ensure a clean install.

7. Final Cleaning.
It is important that the final product is perfectly clean.
You do not want any spots of Bonding Agent anywhere it is not suppose to be.
This especially so for the interior Cylinder Walls and Cylinder Nozzle.
One last thorough cleaning using cotton swabs and Acetone will do the job.
I always finish up last with a Dremel polishing of the interior Cylinder Walls and outer Cylinder Body as well.
http://i1266.photobu...zps0bb9c91d.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zpsc24b6cd8.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zpsba801bd6.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zps6a0550b2.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zps83702701.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zpsefea5609.jpg
http://i1266.photobu...zps1226b573.jpg

Edited by vanevery, 03 August 2014 - 04:49 PM.


#71 vanevery

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 06:20 PM

View Postcellistle, on 20 May 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Hello Vanevery. I taped a baking pan (about 2' by 2') 250 ft away into a forest with clear shots. I have marked off every 50 feet. Here are the 3 things I have tried so far (always with lonex 70) in my sr10.
1. Flat hopped with conclave nub
2. Flat hopped with homemade nub
3. Un-modded lonex 70 with the nub that it came with.
I didn't notice a single bit of difference between them except for with the homemade nub. I had a pink eraser that I cut to size. All 3 of them would shoot to about 150 feet with 100% accuracy. Moving to 200 feet It was seemingly near impossible to hit at that point. I sighted in my red dot to 150 feet. Aiming above didn't seem to help very much. With the homemade nub I noticed the best accuracy, however right about 150 feet the bbs would suddenly start curving hard to the left.
What would you recommend my next step to be here?
KWA sr10 + G&G .28s

A stock SR10 with the stock 2g Bucking will shoot 200' all day long.
With a Lonex 70 Degree Bucking installed correctly, shooting 250' with your SR10 is achievable.
150' is also not very far in distance wen you actually measure it off.
It is surprisingly closer than you think.

I would re-install the Bucking.
Make sure to dis-assemble the Hop-up Unit to remove and install the Bucking.
Otherwise, you are adding hours of aggravation to your install and will also probably never get the performance you are looking for due to the Nub not seating correctly.
I would also use heaver bb's.
.30 minimum, .32 and up preferably.

Once you get everything dialed in, your gun will shoot ridiculously far and accurate.

#72 cellistle

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Posted 25 May 2014 - 07:18 AM

Thank you very much. I havnt been able to retry because of moving this weekend but  Tuesday I have the entire day dedicated to working on my sr10.
My next question is, so that I will be expecting the right level of performance,  is if the 250 feet is effective range? Just to make sure of the definition it's where I don't have to account for gravity pulling it down. So once zeroed I can place the dot on the pan at 50 feet to hit the pan and at 250 feet I can place the dot at the exact same spot and still hit the pan?
But say around 300 feet a dot will have to be above it because the bb will begin to fall?

#73 tumtumsdmon

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 12:04 PM

Hello again!
So far this is what I have done to my KWA CQR:
Installed KM Head 6.02 509mm
Installed Lonex 70 Degree Bucking (used MEGA Teflon Mod that Vanevery talked about)
Installed Lonex M4 Full cylinder
Installed Magic Box M100 Spring
Corrected AOE
Stock everything else

So after all of that I went to chrono my gun at the field that I went to for a weekend game. It was shooting around 330 fps with .2g bbs. Throughout the day I was using .25g Matrix bbs (and yeah I know... they suck but it is just what I have at the moment. I really wish someone made .30g bbs but in big bag for cheap though :/) and they were flying far! I did not get to measure how far exactly they were going but they flew off into the distance and it disappeared! Which was when I wish I had attached my 3x magnifier at the time.

Later that day, I went back to my buddy's place to use his back yard and test the range of my gun. Of course, I tried to make this as fair as possible. Used a table to shoot the gun. Had the hop tuned to the straightest flight possible. The target was a metal 3ft by 3ft sign pinned to a wall. The test was for me just to hit the target in order for the metal to make a sound. I started at 50ft and that was easy, 10/10. 100ft was 10/10. 150ft was 9/10. Now was for what I really wanted to reach for. 200ft. I was hitting it 7/10! (which to me was pretty good!). 250ft was 6/10. At 250ft I stopped there and was already happy with my results. I should probably try my gun at 250ft a little more but I was satisfied where I was at the moment. Also, it started to get pretty windy so it would be hard to get fair results. All of this was using .25g Matrix bbs.

When the day comes again to test my gun, I will try to reach 250ft with at least a 7/10 shots. Hopefully I can get my hands on some .30g bbs to make the shots even better. Until then, keep up the good work Vanevery! Thank you for the tips and suggestions!

Also, if you were wondering why I was using a M100 spring, It was so I could keep my gun for cqb limits as well. My Cqb fields required guns to shoot under 350fps. Now I could shoot straight and accurate indoor as well ;D

#74 niko_gpsy

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Posted 06 June 2014 - 01:44 PM

I have recently used a maple leaf bucking in my SR5 with an EDGI 273mm 6.01 barrel shooting 365FPS with 0.25.  I have to say that I was very pleased with the performance at Red Storm East.  It was out shooting many of the scout length guns at the event.
I have not had a chance to perform a thorough test on this bucking but it looks promising.

#75 philippe07024

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Posted 08 June 2014 - 06:43 PM

View Postphilippe07024, on 20 May 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Mr V,
As usual, thank you for the prompt and helpful answers.
My answers/comments are below. Your answers are in italic.

Good job on the effort you have put in your gun build so far.
Thank you.

BTW: Did you replace the stock Piston Head O-ring with a better one?
Actually, I have just ordered Danco #14 O-Rings yesterday based on reviewing other posts of yours in other threads/forums. I felt the compression could be better when moving manually the piston in the cylinder. As a side note, I also felt that the VFC cylinder + stock cylinder head fitting and maybe sealing could be improved: the cylinder head was coming out really easily of the cylinder.

Also: Forget Barrel Lock-Down for now. Save that for latter.
OK, one thing at a time.

MATRIX / EVIKE brand is notorious for issues, especially with their bb's.
These bb's will simply cause you problems, especially their bio's.

Noted. I have Elite Force MILSIM Max Bio 0.32g that just arrived.

Be very patient with installing the Lonex 70 Degree Bucking.
.
..
Thank you for the procedure. I actually starting to do these steps by my own trial and error yesterday evening. So far, I still have little bit of the bucking showing in the C-clip window: is it expected?
Attachment photo 3-1.jpg

UPDATE 05/21: after continuing moving the barrel as described in Mr.v.'s post, the bucking ended fitting totally in the hop up unit. The C clip is not 100% back in place in a nice tight fit, it seems the barrel is a little forward or where is should be. Part of the lost fps was re-gained: the gun shoots at 355fps w/ 0.25g BBs.
I look forward taking the gun out to check that the effect of the hop up improved.

Philippe

Update 06/08/14:
I had the opportunity to go back to the field. I adjusted my scope.
My current setup is:
1. Quality heavy ammo:    Elite Force MILSIM Max Bio 0.32g
2. Hop-up Unit: Bucking:   Lonex 70 Degree. No other mod in this section.
3. 455mm Inner Barrel: MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb.
4. Full / Type-O Cylinder: VFC cylinder
5. Spring: Stock M120

At 120 feet: Easy to hit the target.
At 200 feet: With initial hop-up setup, the BBs would start to curve downward before reaching the target. When increasing the hop-up, the BBs would start flying upward. I could not find a spot where the hop-up would allow to hit the target straight. I chrono'd at 290-295fps.
Am I within the expected results?

Philippe

#76 choochoo

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:47 AM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 06 June 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I have recently used a maple leaf bucking in my SR5 with an EDGI 273mm 6.01 barrel shooting 365FPS with 0.25.  I have to say that I was very pleased with the performance at Red Storm East.  It was out shooting many of the scout length guns at the event.
I have not had a chance to perform a thorough test on this bucking but it looks promising.
Was it pretty easy to get the maple leaf bucking into the hop up?



View Postphilippe07024, on 08 June 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Update 06/08/14:
I had the opportunity to go back to the field. I adjusted my scope.
My current setup is:
1. Quality heavy ammo: Elite Force MILSIM Max Bio 0.32g
2. Hop-up Unit: Bucking:   Lonex 70 Degree. No other mod in this section.
3. 455mm Inner Barrel: MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb.
4. Full / Type-O Cylinder: VFC cylinder
5. Spring: Stock M120

At 120 feet: Easy to hit the target.
At 200 feet: With initial hop-up setup, the BBs would start to curve downward before reaching the target. When increasing the hop-up, the BBs would start flying upward. I could not find a spot where the hop-up would allow to hit the target straight. I chrono'd at 290-295fps.
Am I within the expected results?

Philippe
I've had the same thing happen.  I think your bucking is not completely seated correctly in the hop up.  This happened to me when I tried to put the lonex bucking in on my SR12 and it's even happened when the stock 2gx bucking wasn't seated right.

#77 Pyro_Buster

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:52 AM

View Postchoochoo, on 09 June 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:


Was it pretty easy to get the maple leaf bucking into the hop up?

I personally have installed a Maple Leaf with flat nub in both my SR10 and SR7. It was a breeze and although I have no experience installing the Lonex, it sounds as though the Maple Leaf is easier.

#78 choochoo

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 09:54 AM

ok, i'll try that.  I've had good experience with the lonex bucking and for $3, it's really a great deal.

#79 philippe07024

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Posted 13 June 2014 - 09:35 AM

View Postchoochoo, on 09 June 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

...

Quote

1. Quality heavy ammo: Elite Force MILSIM Max Bio 0.32g
2. Hop-up Unit: Bucking:   Lonex 70 Degree. No other mod in this section.
3. 455mm Inner Barrel: MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb.
4. Full / Type-O Cylinder: VFC cylinder
5. Spring: Stock M120

At 120 feet: Easy to hit the target.
At 200 feet: With initial hop-up setup, the BBs would start to curve downward before reaching the target. When increasing the hop-up, the BBs would start flying upward. I could not find a spot where the hop-up would allow to hit the target straight. I chrono'd at 290-295fps.
Am I within the expected results?


I've had the same thing happen.  I think your bucking is not completely seated correctly in the hop up.  This happened to me when I tried to put the lonex bucking in on my SR12 and it's even happened when the stock 2gx bucking wasn't seated right.

Thank you.
Could you please tell me what I am looking for in distance reached and fps with M120 and 0.32g BBs?

#80 vanevery

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Posted 14 June 2014 - 06:51 AM

View Postphilippe07024, on 08 June 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

Update 06/08/14:
I had the opportunity to go back to the field. I adjusted my scope.
My current setup is:
1. Quality heavy ammo: Elite Force MILSIM Max Bio 0.32g
2. Hop-up Unit: Bucking:   Lonex 70 Degree. No other mod in this section.
3. 455mm Inner Barrel: MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb.
4. Full / Type-O Cylinder: VFC cylinder
5. Spring: Stock M120

At 120 feet: Easy to hit the target.
At 200 feet: With initial hop-up setup, the BBs would start to curve downward before reaching the target. When increasing the hop-up, the BBs would start flying upward. I could not find a spot where the hop-up would allow to hit the target straight. I chrono'd at 290-295fps.
Am I within the expected results?

Philippe

Your gun should be eating up 200' for breakfast.

Given your description, I believe it does not have anything to do with the Gearbox or Air Nozzle.
The fps may seem low, but for .32's that is actually about right.
10 different Chronographs can produce 10 different readings as well, so keep that in mind.
It also matters at what setting the Hop-up Unit was set when chronoing the gun.
I believe you need to focus your attention on the Hop-un Unit and Bucking.

Install:
If the Bucking was not installed correctly, the gun will not shoot correctly.
The Lonex 70 Degree Bucking gives a lot of people issues regarding the install process specifically in their KWA Hop-up Units.
This due to the Bucking's thickness and the tight tolerance of the Hop-up Unit.

- I always lube the Bucking and Hop-up Unit tube with 100% pure silicone oil.
I use Team Associated Shock Oil / 30wt.
http://www.teamassoc...s/details/5422/
Make ure to clean up any visible oil with soap and water after install is finished and to thoroughly dry.

- Make sure the Hop-up Unit is dis-assembled to remove and install this Bucking.
This is the only way I do it.
If you are attempting a straight-up Inner Barrel and Bucking install without dis-assembling the Hop-up Unit, then the odds of the install turning out well, especially with a thick rubber Bucking, are very slim. A lot of this has to do with seating the Nub correctly inside the Hop-up Chamber.
A straight-up install will usually push the Nub out of position off of its placement on the Chamber Arm.
I find that a straight up install process without taking apart the Hop-up Unit to be a complete waste of time and energy especially with thick rubber Buckings.

Posted Image



Proper Seating:
Once the Bucking is installed, it is not impossible for the Bucking to get stretched out,  wrinkled or for the Bucking Lips to retract backwards over the Inner Barrel.
This is why I always suggest the Two Steps forward, One Step Backwards approach.
When installing (pushing the Inner Barrel with Bucking through the Hop-up Unit), I always push in a few mm's, then pull back a couple of mm's and repeat this all the way forward.
When the Bucking reaches all the way forward, I shine a very bright flash light at the Bucking Lips to inspect how the Bucking Lips are seated.
Even if it looks good, I usually pull back a couple mm's and push forward again at least once or twice. This ensures the Bucking Lips are seated properly and all the way forward.
Posted Image

Nub and Chamber Spring
Once the Bucking is seated properly, you are ready to install the Nub and Chamber Spring.
The most important thing here is to make sure:
1. Each are in the right place.
2. Each remain in place as you close the Chamber Arm.
Posted Image

Once the Chamber Arm is closed, test that the Nub is functioning correctly by pressing and releasing the tension on the Chamber Arm. This will also demonstrate if the Barrel Window of the Inner Barrelis in its proper place and lined up correctly with the Barrel Window of the Hop-up Unit.

- Re-install Dial Wheels and you are good to go.
Posted Image

Note:
I do not use C-clips, I use the Mega Teflon Mod.
If you find that your Bucking has stretched and is extending into the C-clip area and preventing you from installing your C-clip, it is perfectly ok to trim off the tail end of the Bucking and thus allow the C-clip to install.

Edited by vanevery, 14 June 2014 - 06:53 AM.





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