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Let's Talk Long Range


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#21 gato

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 09:20 AM

great topic vanevery!
I try to do my test here and make shots to 100 yards with great accuracy, but I have the stock kwa gear box (SR10),  I made my own r-hop and flat hoped some buckings(KWA, G&G, promy) but I think to achieve that distance I have to make some changes on the gear box, like type O cylinder and 135 spring.
So I have some questions:
Is necesary change the kwa motor to pull the 135 spring?(I dont think so)
Is necesary change to type O cylinder? can you recomend me some?
the KWA stock piston can handle the power of the 135 spring?

I really appreciate your help and keep writing, is very motivator learn and see your advance.

Best regards from Chile!

#22 gcw360

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 09:32 AM

View Postgato, on 26 September 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

great topic vanevery!
I try to do my test here and make shots to 100 yards with great accuracy, but I have the stock kwa gear box (SR10),  I made my own r-hop and flat hoped some buckings(KWA, G&G, promy) but I think to achieve that distance I have to make some changes on the gear box, like type O cylinder and 135 spring.
So I have some questions:
Is necesary change the kwa motor to pull the 135 spring?(I dont think so)
Is necesary change to type O cylinder? can you recomend me some?
the KWA stock piston can handle the power of the 135 spring?

I really appreciate your help and keep writing, is very motivator learn and see your advance.

Best regards from Chile!
Hi Gato - Welcome to the KWA Forums.  I'm sure Van will chime in but I wanted to add my comments too.

Is necesary change the kwa motor to pull the 135 spring?(I dont think so) - The KWA Motor can pull an M135 or S135 spring though a higher torque motor will give you a more "crisp" trigger response
Is necesary change to type O cylinder? can you recomend me some? - If you are staying with the stock length inner barrel (425mm) I would stay with the stock cylinder which is optimized to that length barrel
the KWA stock piston can handle the power of the 135 spring? The KWA piston can handle an m135.  In fact, the KWA gearbox is rated for up to an m150 spring so long as it is properly shimmed.

If you are looking to gain more accuracy, consider adding a KM Head 6.02 mm TBB.  They can be purchased in the Pro Shop: http://store.kwausa....arrel425mm.aspx

Hope this helps.

#23 vanevery

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Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:31 PM

View Postgato, on 26 September 2013 - 09:20 AM, said:

great topic vanevery!
I try to do my test here and make shots to 100 yards with great accuracy, but I have the stock kwa gear box (SR10),  I made my own r-hop and flat hoped some buckings(KWA, G&G, promy) but I think to achieve that distance I have to make some changes on the gear box, like type O cylinder and 135 spring.
So I have some questions:
Is necesary change the kwa motor to pull the 135 spring?(I dont think so)
Is necesary change to type O cylinder? can you recomend me some?
the KWA stock piston can handle the power of the 135 spring?

I really appreciate your help and keep writing, is very motivator learn and see your advance.

Best regards from Chile!
Hi gato.
Thank you for your interest.

Long range is a challenge in airsoft.
It is possible to shoot very long range and be accurate.
I have learned many thing about what it takes to build a gun to shoot at 100 yards and farther and hit a target at these distances.
i am still in the learning process and enjoy every minute on the range pushing my skills and guns to their limits, as well as accurately hitting people in games from very long range. I love it when they have that "where did that come from" look on their face or just walk on out knowing I see them but don't believe I can reach them. Then, the look of disbelief as they pull out their dead rag.

One of the most interesting things I have learned is that you do not need mega fps to shoot long range.
I have spent a great deal of time recently using a high powered spring which did in fact yield a high fps in my DMR. That was more for the fun of it, than the necessity of it. Before that I used an m135 spring at around 475fps measured w/ .20's
I also was testing out other guns, such as my KM41, with all kinds of Hop-up Mods, barrels, and the like and have got some great performance out of that at long range.
Currenly, I am lowering the power of my DMR to 450fps measured w/.25's.
This is to allow me to use my DMR at games and events, as well as put most of my tech focus on more Hop-up mods.
Mods such as ER-hop and the like.

As for your questions, gcw360 did a great job answering them.
I will give you my take on it.

- KWA Motor / m135 spring.
It is not necessary.
Your motor can pull an m150 with no trouble.
I do suggest a Neo Magnet motor at some point, but get the most out of the stock motor.
You will be surprised what it can do.
You will need a high amp battery.
A 9.6v/4500mah battery served me well until I made the switch to all Li-po's
i do suggest going Li-po at some point.
A mosfet is advisable for doing so.

-Type-O/ Full Cylinder Necessary.
For shooting 100 yards and consistently hitting a target, yes.
For shooting less than 100 yards and consistently hitting a target, no.
This has mostly to do with shooting heavy ammo. Heavy ammo simply needs more air volume to carry the bb for long distance. By heavy ammo I mean .40's. You need heavy ammo such as this to maintain accuracy over long distance, regardless of what Hop-up mod you use. If you want to shoot 100 yards, you need a Type-O / Full Cylinder

KWA Piston / m135 spring.
Yes, it can easily handle a m135 spring.
How long, I am not sure.
I shoot mostly in Semi-Auto.
My DMR is permanently Semi-Auto now.
I prefer after-market Pistons.
I am a big fan of polycarb pistons with a rack of at least 6 metal teeth.
So, I have mostly used after-market pistons specifically in my KWA DMR.

Edited by vanevery, 08 February 2014 - 10:58 PM.


#24 gato

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:39 AM

thanks for your answers gcw360 and vanevery!!
I'm very grateful!!
But this never stop, I have more questions, because I live in Chile and I have to buy many of my suplies and parts on internet (evike), can you recomend me a type O cylinder and a 135 spring? (I read you use a prometheus).
Again, thank you very much for your time and help.

Best Regards

#25 vanevery

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Posted 30 September 2013 - 02:51 PM

View Postgato, on 30 September 2013 - 06:39 AM, said:

thanks for your answers gcw360 and vanevery!!
I'm very grateful!!
But this never stop, I have more questions, because I live in Chile and I have to buy many of my suplies and parts on internet (evike), can you recomend me a type O cylinder and a 135 spring? (I read you use a prometheus).
Again, thank you very much for your time and help.

Best Regards
Sure thing.

Prommy is in fact the m135 spring that I use.
Just got a new one in a few days ago.
http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=32454

As for a Type-0/Full Cylinder.
Just about any will do.
I do not like ribbed Cylinder bodies and there is no added benefit to getting a teflon coated Cylinder.
JBU Cylinders have larger Outer Diameters with their Cylinders, or at least mine is, so that make closing the gearbox shell a little bit more work.
I like Guarder Cylinders maybe the best, but that is just my opinion.
Take a look at these:
- Guarder
http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=25869
-APS
http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=27306

BTW:
If you are making a large international order, I highly suggest adding these things to your order.
- MadBull 455mm/6.03tbb
http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=24374
- G&G Green Bucking
http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=36022
- KSC/KWA .30 BB's
http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=38146

#26 bmgreen

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 12:12 AM

This is by far one of the best and most interesting threads I have read in a long time. I look forward to the updates as your project progresses.

Keep up the good work Van and KWA.



#27 gato

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:17 AM

Thank you vanevery!!
I placed my order, now wait the new spring and cylinder!!

by the way, I have g&g green bucking flat hoped and kwa bucking flat hoped and for me the kwa work best, with the same madbull 455 6,01 barrel, for at least 10" and accuracy gain.

My actual set up are kwa flat hoped bucking with home made R-hop on a kwa Sr10 standard gear box with a madbull 509 6,01 barrel and can hit a lamppost from 230" 7 of 10 times with 0,28 bb's.

I prove different weights of bb's, from 0,25 - 0,28 - 0,30 - 0,36 and 0,40, and with the actual set up the 0,28 is the most reliable.

I work on the R hop patch, because is home made sometimes the grouping are not good and the repeatability of the shot on long distances wasn't good, but still working on differents materials and then try the G hop (the same principle but the patch are from bucking). Now I using the modify flat hop nub (Ryusoku), but have to do my M nub, I think this work better (more contact surface and homogeneous distribution of the load over the bb)

I have another question, why you recomend me a 6,03 barrel? I have that barrel but in my experience the 6,01 gave me more consistency on distances and accuracy.
and I compared the 509 vs the 455, both 6,01, and the 509 gave me more distance and accuracy with the standard cylinder, why that can be?

again, thank you very much for all your help

have a great week


best regards

#28 vanevery

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Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:14 PM

gato:

I am impressed with the effort and time you have put into your gun.
Good job on all counts. I am also interested in your performance results given the combination of parts and mods you have done.

R-hop:
I use home-made R-hops as well.
My R-hop results are not better than Flat-hop.
However, I did just get in some standard R-hop patches and M-nubs from HS5 and realized something. The rubber in the standard R-hop patches is much harder than the rubber sources I have been using. Maybe my performance will be better with the harder Shore rubber. I have been going the softer Shore route thus far.

Flat-hop:
My best results with Flat-hop are with the G&G Green Bucking.
I do need to test my Flat-hopped Lonex 70 degree Buckings more often to make a final decision on which of these two I like better for this mod.
I can tell you this.
I get amazing results with the G&G Green Bucking with this mod.

BB weight:
I too have tested all the weights you posted and more.
My experience is the heavier the bb the better range and accuracy in all respects. .40's have been great for me but my accuracy is better with .43's.
Still need to do some more testing between the two to see which one gives more over-all range.

Inner Barrels:
- 6.03 vs 6.01.
I recommend the MadBull inner barrels in 6.03 because I have several of them in different lengths and they have all performed great in my KWA guns.
I am by no means telling you one bore size is better than the other. Everyone has a different opinion on this.  All I am saying is I have extensive experience with the 6.03tbb's. It may be the case that 6.01's are better.
It may also prove to be the case that wider bores are better. I simply can only tell you the results I have achieved with the inner barrels I have used.

- 509mm vs 455mm.
Good question.
I too have achieved great success with all my 509mm Inner Barrels.
This is in part why I took a long time before testing my 455mm Inner Barrel.
Once I did test my 455mm inner barrel, my accuracy immediately improved and it became much easier to hit a target at 300' and 360' with more consistency.

Summary.
I have a lot more to learn and a lot more set-ups to test before I arrive at final conclusions on parts and mods. I will keep this thread updated and hope you will keep us all updated as to your performance results and progress with your gun build. Nice to meet guys as interested in long range as I am.

Edited by vanevery, 01 October 2013 - 05:15 PM.


#29 rames

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Posted 08 November 2013 - 12:13 AM

vanevery
In your experience, Is the G&G green bucking causes inconsistent shoots for first time installation? Do it need breaking in period?
I have installed it on two guns.
First, KWA M4 with guarder SP140 spring, shooting range is 145-150m/s.
Second, KAC PDW with modify sp110+, shooting range is 114-119m/s.
Difference is 5m/s in both case, very strange :)
I have checked compression parts and seems I have good compression on both guns.

#30 vanevery

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 08:35 AM

A lot of things can effect consistency in gun performance, especially when any recent changes have been made to the guns internals. I find that all gun brands have too much grease in the gearbox and specifically in the Cylinder. A lot of "Techs" over-grease their Cylinders when performing gun maintenance or upgrades. This grease in the Cylinder immediately gets into the Cylinder Nozzle and then Air Nozzle. It then shoots into your inner barrel, gets on your bucking, and then can even get on your BB's themselves. Until this grease is properly cleaned out and the lightest of coating of the correct oil is applied, consistency will be hard to achieve.

To specifically answer your question, NO.
I do not find consistency to be an issue of any kind with the G&G Green Bucking.
I find this bucking performs the same no matter what the internal set-up, gun model, or gun brand.
It is by far one of the most consistent performing buckings on the market.

This bucking fairs much better with heavy ammo.
If you are using anything less than .30's, you may discover a break-in period of 5000-10,000 rounds to be beneficial.
You will also find this bucking to be very sensitive to adjustment.
I find micro-adjustments judged by the width of a hair to be a good rule of thumb for this specific bucking.
Always chrono and begin test shooting using the G&G Green bucking with the Hop-up dialed all the way Off.
The bucking mound is beefy compared to other buckings. This combined with the soft rubber provides a lot of grip to the BB.

Edited by vanevery, 09 November 2013 - 12:30 PM.


#31 rames

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Posted 09 November 2013 - 12:15 PM

Thank you for attention.
I have switched to 2gx bucking, cleaned barrel, but it was clean and results are same. So, my consideration is wrong.
May be problem is in nozzle to cylinder head compression. I'll check it on next maintenance process.

Edited by rames, 11 November 2013 - 05:14 AM.


#32 vanevery

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Posted 14 December 2013 - 03:34 PM

Update.

Life and work have been consuming all of my time.
Have not had the time I have needed to resume testing and furthering progression with DMR's.
It will most likely be Spring or Summer before I can get back to this.
However................

I took advantage of Cyber Monday deals and picked up a couple of video cameras.
A Sony HDR-AS15 Action camera and a Sony HDR-CX230.
This point going forward, my days at the range with my DMR's will be video referenced.
When I state this gun shoots X distance and Y accuracy in Z gun set-up, there will be video documentation of such.
Posted ImagePosted Image

My intention is to have one camera stationed at the target and one camera with me at the gun.
I will shoot other angles as well, but want a duel view to verify distance and accuracy.
I have many accessories for the action camera - Handle Bar Mount, Waterproof Housing, Head Strap Mount, etc,  so will include some game play footage as well.

Right now, all of my airsoft guns are open for maintenance and upgrades.
Everything is being updated for optimal performance.

Moving forward, I intend to have two DMR's.
1. Field Use / Game Play DMR:
The field use DMR will have and FPS of around 450fps measured using .25's.
This is qualify this DMR for Events and Sanctioned Games.
It is also to push all of my tech skills to the limit and gain as much performance as possible with only quality parts and proper modifications. There will be no benefit of excessive power as a result of monster FPS for obtaining range and accuracy.

2. Non-field use DMR.
This gun is for testing and targeting only.
This gun is for max power as well as testing the unknown.
This will be for obtaining as much FPS as possible and comparing the performance in regards to the lesser power DMR.
It is for pushing the gun, its parts, and all outside the box ideas I have and implement to their absolute limit.

Look forward to a great year and accomplishing new goals.
Look forward to shooting farther and more accurate than ever before.
Look forward to all others sharing their experiences with Long Range shooting.

#33 Everything_airsoft

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 07:21 PM

View Postvanevery, on 14 December 2013 - 03:34 PM, said:

Update.

Life and work have been consuming all of my time.
Have not had the time I have needed to resume testing and furthering progression with DMR's.
It will most likely be Spring or Summer before I can get back to this.
However................

I took advantage of Cyber Monday deals and picked up a couple of video cameras.
A Sony HDR-AS15 Action camera and a Sony HDR-CX230.
This point going forward, my days at the range with my DMR's will be video referenced.
When I state this gun shoots X distance and Y accuracy in Z gun set-up, there will be video documentation of such.
Posted ImagePosted Image

My intention is to have one camera stationed at the target and one camera with me at the gun.
I will shoot other angles as well, but want a duel view to verify distance and accuracy.
I have many accessories for the action camera - Handle Bar Mount, Waterproof Housing, Head Strap Mount, etc,  so will include some game play footage as well.

Right now, all of my airsoft guns are open for maintenance and upgrades.
Everything is being updated for optimal performance.

Moving forward, I intend to have two DMR's.
1. Field Use / Game Play DMR:
The field use DMR will have and FPS of around 450fps measured using .25's.
This is qualify this DMR for Events and Sanctioned Games.
It is also to push all of my tech skills to the limit and gain as much performance as possible with only quality parts and proper modifications. There will be no benefit of excessive power as a result of monster FPS for obtaining range and accuracy.

2. Non-field use DMR.
This gun is for testing and targeting only.
This gun is for max power as well as testing the unknown.
This will be for obtaining as much FPS as possible and comparing the performance in regards to the lesser power DMR.
It is for pushing the gun, its parts, and all outside the box ideas I have and implement to their absolute limit.

Look forward to a great year and accomplishing new goals.
Look forward to shooting farther and more accurate than ever before.
Look forward to all others sharing their experiences with Long Range shooting.
Alright man great info. Cant wait to see what you have in store for summer :clap:  Btw: Thanks for all the great tips and info you give me and all the other noobs on this fourm.

#34 gato

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Posted 04 February 2014 - 07:44 AM

After a lots of test and mistakes, and more test......I can make some reviews of my DMR project.
The base is a KWA SR10, internally I change the cilinder (tipe 0), cilinder head (two o-rings), swiss cheese the piston and a ported piston head. The spring is a promy 135, and I get 490 FPS with this setup. After all this, I probe the air seal with the kwa nozle, I feel this don't seal as I like it, but other nozle with o-rings don't fit well in the KWA hopup chamber, somebody have an answer for this? I try with the KWA cilinder head and have the same result.

In other hand, I try at least three hopup setup for start and then a lot of variations:
1.- Lonex 70° bukcking+pencil nub+Km head 509mm, 6,02.
2.- G&G green bucking+promy flat nub with bridge (hard)+madbull 509mm 6,01.
3.- KWA 2GX flat bucking+HS5 M-nub+IR-hop patch+madbull 509mm 6,03.

After a lots of tests, this are my conclusion:
the flathop and Rhop are the best longrange shooting option.The flat are more easy to get in shape, but I damage one G&G green bucking with this setup (a hole over the nub contact zone, for the contact and preasure between the nub and bb, this bucking are too soft for flat hop on high FPS, then I use on Rhop and work perfect!)


The Rhop are great if you have time and patience, you can achieve great performance, but you have to look a lot of points and take care with the patch, sanding right in the middle, don't too much or too short, cut the patch in the same pattern that the barrel window....etc. I buy the IR z kit from HS5, but I try with a silicone hose, both works perfect.

between the diferences of the barrels, all works great, 6.01 to 6.03......but have better accuracy with 6.03 Madbull (8 of 10) to 250 feet, beside the 6.01 (6 of 10) and 6.02 (5 of 10).

the target is a metallic light post, of 6 inches of diameter.

The ammo go from the 0.3 echo1, 0.40 madbull and 0.43 madbull. The presicion test was performed with the 0.3 and 0.4, because I can't see the 0.43 black bb :shocked: .....the best performance go with the 0.4, but its a little difference, 7 of 10 vs 6 of 10 with the same hopup unit at 250 feet.

In relation to max range, I can hit a target with the Rhop set up to 280 feet 3 of 10 times with the 0,4 bb, then the bb drop....

I keep testing, working on other buckings and modifications. I read about the G-hop, the same principle of the R-Hop but the patch are made from a bucking, I try and write as soon as I can.

after all I have two questions:
1.- what can I do with the nozle issue? to achieve a better air seal.
2.- I buy a promy 150 spring, can install to use in semi only? can the KWA motor pull this spring?  I need to use sorbo pads on this?

Have a great week, sorry with my redaction, I keep working on that too :Iknow: .


Best regards!

#35 vanevery

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Posted 06 February 2014 - 06:41 PM

Gato.
Thank you for the update and great job with everything you have done.

Hop-up Mods:
Flat-hop and R-hop are great.
I am glad you have been further testing both mods.
Keep it up.
Hope you try ER-hop at some point and let us know your results.

Drop-in Buckings / Barrel Length:
- In regards to both the G&G Green and Lonex Buckings, may I suggest simply using the Nub that comes in the packaging with them. You may find these specific Bucking work better with their own Nubs.
My DMR/DMR's shoots the distances you stated with both these Buckings and no R-hop or Flat hop, and with ease, with same fps and the using 509mm Inner Barrels.
So, there is a lot more performance to achieve in this regards, if you wanted to experiment more with these Buckings.
- Consider a 455mm Inner Barrel. You will shoot further and more accurately vs a 509mm, though all of my 509mm's perform very well.

Ammo:
Try Elite Force Bio .32's.
These BB's are simply awesome for long range and accuracy.

Air Nozzle/Cylinder Nozzle:
I believe your best bet would be a brand new KWA Cylinder Head and Air Nozzle.
This will solve all of your problems in this regard.

m150 Spring / Motor:
Yes.
Your stock KWA Motor can pull an m150 spring.
I suggest a Neo Magnet Motor for many reasons.
The main one would be electrical efficiency and the ease of which it pulls an m150 spring by comparison.

Glad to see things are going well with your DMR and to see your knowledge grow and the performance of your gun improve. Please keep updating us on all of your progress.

#36 robbespierre

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:53 AM

hey van. I  have a kwa sr12, and im attempting to create your dmr in essence.  this post was very helpful and I  hope to create a similar product.  thank you very much!

#37 robbespierre

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:06 AM

I  also have a question.  what hop up r u  using in your gun.  from what I read you kept it the same stock hop up

#38 BLATEY

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:54 AM

The hop up unit usually has nothing to do do with your rang and accuracy, but rather the bucking and nubbing used.

Edited by BLATEY, 04 March 2014 - 06:55 AM.


#39 robbespierre

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:44 PM

so what nubbing would u suggest

#40 airsoftmatthias

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:48 PM

View Postrobbespierre, on 04 March 2014 - 12:44 PM, said:

so what nubbing would u suggest

If you read vanevery's post, you'll find some of the different combinations he used. I believe the Lonex 70 degree bucking which includes a nub and the G&G Green, which also includes a nub, were listed.

The stock KWA hop-up unit is fine. Additionally, it can be a pain to install aftermarket hop-up units into KWA guns anyway.




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