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Engineered To Outperform?


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#1 flamerider

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 02:47 PM

Not to sound like a hater here but how can these guns be considered high quality? The first gun I bought from KWA broke in less than a week. It's not like it had just one minor problem, it had 3 major problems and apparently one of them was caused by using propane. If KWA guns are so high quality, why can't they handle the pressure of propane? Why are their magazines purposely built to not fit propane adapters? Green gas is hard to come by and it's expensive. Propane on the other hand is only $2 at my walmart and they come in these big tanks that are twice the size of a green gas can. Yes it does smell bad but in my opinion it's a lot better then spending 15 dollars on a tiny can of the same thing. Almost every other airsoft company I know makes their guns propane compatible. Why not KWA? I don't think these guns are "engineered to outperform" at all. In fact, I'm scared to even buy another KWA gun. I'm sorry but I'm just not happy that I spent nearly $200 on a kwa gun and had to send it back after a week and a half just because the thing couldn't handle propane.

#2 xKingSizex

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 05:05 PM

We make the guns to certain specifications and let the users know what to use to fuel the gun. If the user chooses to ignore the manufacture's recommendations, it does not make the product low quality.
It's like buying a diesel truck and putting in unleaded because it's cheaper, then blaming the car company because you want it to use unleaded. The specs are clearly stated for the products use.
Luckily we still have a place for users to go and have their products repaired, and support like this forum, for users to find help about the products.
We are looking into the Propane thing, but do not make the products to use it at this time.

#3 Ryldrin

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 10:37 PM

I know one of the CQB places near me will ONLY allow Green Gas. He flat out refuses to let people use CO2 and I've yet to see anyone use propane in there. Like KingSize said, they give you the specs and tell you what to use. I bought my M9 PTP second hand and didn't know they were meant for Green Gas, thankfully I couldn't find a propane adapter locally, so I gave in and bought the Green Gas. It smells, but works.

#4 flamerider

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:22 PM

View PostxKingSizex, on 13 April 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

We make the guns to certain specifications and let the users know what to use to fuel the gun. If the user chooses to ignore the manufacture's recommendations, it does not make the product low quality.
It's like buying a diesel truck and putting in unleaded because it's cheaper, then blaming the car company because you want it to use unleaded. The specs are clearly stated for the products use.
Luckily we still have a place for users to go and have their products repaired, and support like this forum, for users to find help about the products.
We are looking into the Propane thing, but do not make the products to use it at this time.

Yes but all I'm trying to say is that most people can't afford to buy green gas all of the time. It's really hard to come by (especially if you live on the east coast like me). Not to mention, Green gas IS propane! The only difference between the two is that one has silicon oil in it and the other doesn't. I don't mean to be a hater but I'm just disappointed that it can't take propane. Maybe it's the NS2 system? I didn't even know that until I bought it and on top of that I watched plenty of reviews on the m93r and most people used propane with it. I bought a can of green gas just for my kwa gun but once it runs out then I'm gonna have no choice but to go back to propane. If you guys really are looking into making your guns propane compatible I would feel a lot better buying them. It would be an excellent idea. Besides the propane thing, I really think you guys do a good job at the craftsmanship of your guns. When I had my m93r, I couldn't stop looking at it so good job with that.

#5 xKingSizex

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 05:02 PM

Thanks Flame...we do understand the issues with getting green gas and this is why we are looking into viable solutions to solve this. We can argue all day long about the contents of Green Gas, but it really is still never proven. The issue with Propane for us is that is leaves a residue in the gun which causes fouling inside the gun, and the pressure is higher in a Propane bottle.
Like I said though, we are working on it to see what we can do.

#6 Age_N_Treachery

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 04:22 AM

I tell people all the time at my local field: "if you cannot afford to properly mantain and fuel your GBB then you shouldn't own one."

bottom line is people that think cost of ownership stops at the check out line with gun in hand are deluding themselves.as with anything in this world, you have continued costs for upkeep and use. so when you buy something you need to take those costs into consideration. I live on the east coast too and I can fing green gas all over the place, but I also know where too look, and walmart isn't one of those places. have I had issues with my KWA GBB guns? yes. have I done everything by the book? yes, and through all of it the KWA staff been nothing but helpfull getting my equipment taken care of for me.

so rather than complain about kwa's "failure" to let you use whatever propellant you want in your airsoft gun, maybe instead you should look at your failure to follow instructions. Take some personal responsibility for the problem instead of looking for a scapegoat.



On a side note: everything I have ever read from reputable sources has stated that green gas and propane are NOT the same thing. GG is actually a variant of freon.

Edited by Age_N_Treachery, 20 April 2011 - 04:22 AM.


#7 flamerider

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 05:07 PM

View PostAge_N_Treachery, on 20 April 2011 - 04:22 AM, said:

I tell people all the time at my local field: "if you cannot afford to properly mantain and fuel your GBB then you shouldn't own one."

bottom line is people that think cost of ownership stops at the check out line with gun in hand are deluding themselves.as with anything in this world, you have continued costs for upkeep and use. so when you buy something you need to take those costs into consideration. I live on the east coast too and I can fing green gas all over the place, but I also know where too look, and walmart isn't one of those places. have I had issues with my KWA GBB guns? yes. have I done everything by the book? yes, and through all of it the KWA staff been nothing but helpfull getting my equipment taken care of for me.

so rather than complain about kwa's "failure" to let you use whatever propellant you want in your airsoft gun, maybe instead you should look at your failure to follow instructions. Take some personal responsibility for the problem instead of looking for a scapegoat.



On a side note: everything I have ever read from reputable sources has stated that green gas and propane are NOT the same thing. GG is actually a variant of freon.

I did follow instructions. When I got my m93r back a few days ago, I used nothing but green gas for it. The only store near me that sells green gas is Godfather Airsoft and I live an hour away from it. KWA's staff was really helpful when I wanted to send back my gun for repairs but I'm not talking about how well they do with customer service. I'm talking about the gun I bought from them. Aside from the propane thing which I've accepted, I always make sure to properly maintain my guns. I have a WELL M4, a KJW M9, and a KJW M1911. I've never had any serious problems with any of them. Now even though I had my M93r fixed, I'm getting the same problem I had before where the gun would fire full auto when it's set on semi auto. I'm also getting a new problem where the gun jams and 4 bbs get stuck in the barrel! I'm not making any of this up.

I don't get it because all I used was green gas on it. I never dropped it and I was never rough when handling the gun. My parents rub it in my face telling me that it was a waste of money even though I told them that KWA makes high quality guns. I'm very frustrated right now because this gun is failing me again even though I had it fixed, AND I used green gas. So I give up. It couldn't even last for a week without having problems. I've had nothing but bad luck with this gun and I spent far too much on it.

#8 Guest_allizard_*

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 10:29 AM

First of all, M93r is a complicated gun.  It's a lot more parts inside then say... a USP.

When was it repaired and what type of BBs were you using?!

#9 SR5Jonathan

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 09:03 AM

View PostAge_N_Treachery, on 20 April 2011 - 04:22 AM, said:



On a side note: everything I have ever read from reputable sources has stated that green gas and propane are NOT the same thing. GG is actually a variant of freon.


Not true, I just picked up a bottle of GG for my USP coming next week and all it took was reading the bottle to see what it is:

Posted Image

Posted Image

So the point that Propane "gums up" guns is moot, as GG is propane.

Edited by SR5Jonathan, 30 April 2011 - 09:10 AM.


#10 Acorn Avenger

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 09:33 AM

View Postflamerider, on 21 April 2011 - 05:07 PM, said:

I did follow instructions. When I got my m93r back a few days ago, I used nothing but green gas for it. The only store near me that sells green gas is Godfather Airsoft and I live an hour away from it. KWA's staff was really helpful when I wanted to send back my gun for repairs but I'm not talking about how well they do with customer service. I'm talking about the gun I bought from them. Aside from the propane thing which I've accepted, I always make sure to properly maintain my guns. I have a WELL M4, a KJW M9, and a KJW M1911. I've never had any serious problems with any of them. Now even though I had my M93r fixed, I'm getting the same problem I had before where the gun would fire full auto when it's set on semi auto. I'm also getting a new problem where the gun jams and 4 bbs get stuck in the barrel! I'm not making any of this up.

I don't get it because all I used was green gas on it. I never dropped it and I was never rough when handling the gun. My parents rub it in my face telling me that it was a waste of money even though I told them that KWA makes high quality guns. I'm very frustrated right now because this gun is failing me again even though I had it fixed, AND I used green gas. So I give up. It couldn't even last for a week without having problems. I've had nothing but bad luck with this gun and I spent far too much on it.
godfather aren't that good of a retailer. they sell guns that have been used and possibly broken and the store is filled with non experienced  people.

Edited by Acorn Avenger, 30 April 2011 - 09:35 AM.


#11 flamerider

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 02:09 PM

View PostSR5Jonathan, on 30 April 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

Not true, I just picked up a bottle of GG for my USP coming next week and all it took was reading the bottle to see what it is:

So the point that Propane "gums up" guns is moot, as GG is propane.

Yes!! That's what I was saying before! It even says it on the bottle for crying out loud.

#12 flamerider

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 02:14 PM

View PostAcorn Avenger, on 30 April 2011 - 09:33 AM, said:

godfather aren't that good of a retailer. they sell guns that have been used and possibly broken and the store is filled with non experienced  people.

I only buy green gas and accessories from them. Besides they're pretty trustworthy to me.

#13 flamerider

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 02:19 PM

View Postallizard, on 22 April 2011 - 10:29 AM, said:

First of all, M93r is a complicated gun.  It's a lot more parts inside then say... a USP.

When was it repaired and what type of BBs were you using?!

It doesn't even matter anymore. The gun broke again. I already said how the gun doesn't fire on semi auto, just full. When that happens, it jams really bad. Then, when I try to shoot the gun on any firing mode, all of the gas in the magazine would just spray out from the barrel. This is by far the worst gun I've ever bought and I'm extemely disappointed with it. I don't want another KWA gun, I don't want technical advice, I just want my freaking money back.

Edited by flamerider, 30 April 2011 - 02:22 PM.


#14 WhiteWhale

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 03:16 PM

View PostSR5Jonathan, on 30 April 2011 - 09:03 AM, said:

So the point that Propane "gums up" guns is moot, as GG is propane.

So, it lists all of the components in the can like a wrapper of ingredients?

Wonder how many calories it has per fill...

#15 SR5Jonathan

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:48 PM

View PostWhiteWhale, on 30 April 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

So, it lists all of the components in the can like a wrapper of ingredients?

Wonder how many calories it has per fill...


What?

GG=propane+silicone.  Period.  So if GG IS propane, than the contents of propane (as it pertains to harm to the gun) is a moot point, because its in GG.

If anything, how do you know what is added to GG?  The contents of propane are more well known than the contents/additives of GG.

Edited by SR5Jonathan, 30 April 2011 - 04:52 PM.


#16 WhiteWhale

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 04:55 PM

Don't think that green gas is just propane and silicone mixed together. Oh well.

Edited by WhiteWhale, 30 April 2011 - 05:46 PM.


#17 xKingSizex

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 12:25 PM

View PostSR5Jonathan, on 30 April 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

What?

GG=propane+silicone.  Period.  So if GG IS propane, than the contents of propane (as it pertains to harm to the gun) is a moot point, because its in GG.

If anything, how do you know what is added to GG?  The contents of propane are more well known than the contents/additives of GG.

You can't say it's a moot point when I've seen the gumming up that it does on SEVERAL guns that come in for repair.
You don't know the quality, consistency or mixture in the can. Again, nothing has been proven about the COMPLETE contents in green gas, so you can't just say the issue is finalized because a can has it listed as ONE OF THE CONTENTS. It's FACT that certain propane does gum up the internals and I've never seen it with green gas usage. So it could be the quality of propane in the mix that allows it to not have this issue, or something else. We aren't saying that there isn't propane in green gas, we are just saying that it's not as simple as just propane and silicone oil.
You haven't really proven anything with that picture of the can, but I understand where you're coming from.

#18 Alastor

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:30 AM

About the full auto on semi auto issue, take a look at how the burst internals work and how te cycle is interrupted in semi auto. In my case part 24 wa simply filed by slide(and, probably, minor impurities on the field), to the point it did not engage the trigger bar properly. It can be repaired by exchanging part 24 or putting a drop of superglue on trigger bar piece that part 61 is pushing down in single fire mode.
I think part 24 needs to be revised to adress that problem. Maybe a rolling ball or something, to lessen the friction?
About propane Vs GG, if green gas was pure propane, the pressure would be the same. But it is not. GG does have some butane added. And, of course, the silicon oil. Do You know that pure propane also is usually oiled with something? And there is another problem, impurities of propane. It is cheaper than gg partially because it is way purer.

#19 LongNap

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:08 AM

Bump!

Sorry guys for bringing this back out of the graveyard but Google is returning this page for key words (propane+kwa).

So I just got a M93R by mistake from my reseller (they put one in my shipment by mistake) so I'm waiting on them to contact me to either return or I may purchase it?

I was planning on buying a WE M9 and I know this is a year old thread but I see that KWA still states only “Green Gas” and the WE lists all types Red, Green and Propane.  This would be my first GBB gun so I'm new to this type of technology but I have several AEG and know them inside and out all the way from shims to the hop-up.

So my question is… can I run Propane in this gun and just plan to do some cleaning? I understand completely that it would void my warranty (or it should in my opinion) but I can’t find Green Gas near Houston that doesn’t cost 15-20 dollars a can? So is there anyone using Propane that can speak on what to expect?

I can work on the gun and have no issues with that but just to set expectations, it would be more helpful to know what will break or need additional maintenance?

If everyone is just dead set on using just Green Gas then I’m cool with spending the extra money for that considering the amount of use I plan for this gun.

My biggest concern would be the pressure and any damage that could do to the mag or internals of the gun? As everyone knows  KWA parts aren’t cheap so it’s not like I can use Matrix or other parts for the internals.

Thanks,
David.

#20 MultipleParadox

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 03:03 PM

Keep the KWA
WE pistols are riddles with issues, and the frame of many people desintegrate (plastic) or cracks (metal)

Just read the threads about KWA's M93 to see potential issues you will encouter (I did write "will" on purpose); Namely, use full auto or 3-burst sparingly, lube it well and you should be fine

Greengas is to keep your warranty goong, propane is to save money; I always used propane with no directly related issues. Just be sure to add silicon oil to it. Tons of info about this

On that matter, Kwa should not be different than any other brand (it's all about the power developpes by the gas and lubrication and/or additives than arguably can damage seals over time, Kwa or WE or TM...)




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