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Propane Vs Green Gas Conundrum


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#1 SPANKYDAHAMSTR

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:45 AM

I have 4 gas guns total all KWA and my newest addition is the HK45 so I am posting this topic here. I use the Madbull adaptor with Aim pure Liquid Silicone in it and never have any trouble. However, I am hearing that I shouldn't; I know for a fact that "Green Gas" is propane with liquid silicone in the can and a different more appealing scent. Propane the gas is odorless the reason the standard propane can stinks is because of an additive to warn people of dangerous leaks when burning it.

So why is using the far more expensive green gas better?

How could using standard Propane damage anything?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a better silicone oil for this application. I have had no guns fail, I am simply testing the waters here for logic and reason.

Thank you

Daniel

#2 Outlaw1995

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:54 AM

Green gas contains a precise amount of silicon oil +/- a certain degree. KWA products are made with certain materials such as urethane (rubber) that react to certain amounts of silicon oil. You cannot control how precise you add your silicon oil into the propane, therefore making it an uneven solution of propane and silicon oil. The mixture will be different every time, I guarantee, since humans aren't perfect. The rubber is designed for a certain amount of lubrication-- so to speak. If you go over that amount, the rubber will swell, your gun will jam, not shoot bbs, etc. KWA has found during extensive testing that using propane increases felt recoil, and it puts unnecessary wear and tear and parts. It's also apparent when guns are sent back-- KWA techs can immediately tell if the user was using propane or not... Some guns will be more propane-tolerant than others.

Propane has been found to be a harder gas than green gas... it would explain why there is harder kick, and more fps when you use it compared to using green gas.

Whatever strategy you've used to maintain your guns and lubricate them must be working if you. I always use green gas, but that's just me. Your mileage may vary.

#3 R_King91303

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:14 AM

Adding on to what Outlaw has stated, I believe the chemical additives that gives the warning smell in propane also has a negative effect on the plastic / rubber components in the gun. Green gas lacks the smell either because the precisely pre-added silicone dilutes it or it's never added to the green gas to begin with and a less damaging warning additive is substituted.


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#4 gcw360

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

View PostR_King91303, on 21 January 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

Adding on to what Outlaw has stated, I believe the chemical additives that gives the warning smell in propane also has a negative effect on the plastic / rubber components in the gun. Green gas lacks the smell either because the precisely pre-added silicone dilutes it or it's never added to the green gas to begin with and a less damaging warning additive is substituted.


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It's the latter reason.  The smell isn't there because the additive isn't.

#5 djKail

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 10:08 AM

I have had the KWA MP7 as well as the USP for over a year now. When researching the MP7 the major issue people ran into was the hop up swelling from silicone oil. On further investigation I found that this happened to many users who committed to only using green gas to power their guns. Fact is "green gas" varies by the brand and probably even the bottle. One brand may add to much silicone oil while others not enough. Also, propane will not increase felt recoil over green gas. They are the same! Even the King Arms green gas I used smelt of propane!

I have been running propane for over a year. I usually use 2 drops of oil per every 7 - 10 mag fills and I have never had an issue with any of my KWA gas guns. My MP7 hopup has never had a problem and all of the internals only show minimal wear. In my opinion green gas is a waste of money.

#6 CDNRogue

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:50 PM

Ahh yes, the propane vs green gas. I thought this was beat to death all ready. I suppose we always have newbies coming into the sport. Well here it goes....

Read above ... everything is correct. If you still don't believe it , read below...
http://www.airsoft-i...een-gas-propane

I saw it once before but there is also a pressure range difference between the two. With the standard green or blue propane tanks, like the Coleman ones, their pressures are held to between 100psi and 200 psi. With airsoft green gas, like from Kingarms, the range is 115psi +/- 5psi. I wish I could find the website that I found that on, but it did surprise me. The varying pressure from coleman propane tank to coleman propane tank would partially explain why people report fps variation and sometimes have mag problems or o-ring blow outs. The oil issue is also a good point.. Even regular cleaning, you may not get to every o-ring.

As a side note, I clean my guns between games and relube them. I try to get alot of the orings and such. I don't use the light stuff but an 80 weight oil (80 weight is similiar to shock oil used in RC toys). This is very similiar to the oil you get with the HK45. I am using the KWA oil supplied with my HK45 for warranty purposes.

In my own opinion, I think if you clean and inspect your gun regularly, it should not matter what you use. If you just fill and go and clean it once every winter, you may want to go with green gas instead of propane. If you are on a tight budget, then adding oil to your coleman propane fill is your only option. Many have done it for many years. I just hate the smell.

Edited by CDNRogue, 21 January 2013 - 01:54 PM.


#7 BENboBEN

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

My guns have never been fed anything but propane. I have never had a single propane related problem. If you can get over the smell, go for propane.

I will defend propane all day long. I have had swollen buckings in my M9 and M93R II, both of these were attributed to spray silicon. The problem people have with propane is that they over lube. I put one drop of thick silicon in everytime I go and shoot. And I think this is a heavy amount of oil. Some people run propane dry, which I will start to do soon. With this though you have to individually lube the o-rings found throughout the gun.

The key is what kid of oil and propane you use. I only recommend Worthington propane. Most people seem to go with Coleman which I highly advise against. It seems like Coleman is greasy and has a lot of additives in it. It usually makes and big puff of vapor with every shot. Worthington seems to be very pure and leaves nothing behind in my mags or gas cylinders, except smell, whereas Coleman leaves this greenish-grey goop everywhere. A lot of people spray silicon in the propane adapter for lube. This will destroy your gun. A lot of people also use the AI propane adapter, and I recomend it, but don't use the little bottle of oil it comes with. Its enough to last you a couple years, but will swell your buckings despite it being liquid silicon oil. I only recomend and use thick silicon oil such as the stuff you get from KWA. I use GHK brand from evike.com. One bottle has lasted me 2 years already and has about a quarter left.

Even if the damages were due to propane and not the bad silicon or over use of silicon, I would still recomend it. $12 vs. $2 is enough for me to pick propane even if it destroyed a bucking for every tank i went through. The potentially hundreds of dollars you can save from propane is more than enough to pay for a swollen bucking every once and a while. Heck, you can save enough for a new gun. Propane is not like green gas where you fill and go. You have give your gun some TLC and clean every once and a while. You should do this even if you're using GG though. If you are not capable of removing the slide from the frame and rubbing everything over with a rag and then a light layer of silicon, then frankly, you shouldn't have one. But that is pretty much all the maintenance it will need. If you do swell a bucking. There are guides on how to replace them, and they're only a couple $ a pop.

I also firmly believe that the GG bottles are bad for your magazines. Every GG bottle I have seen has a metal fill nozzle. The metal fill nozzles are incredibly bad for your mags. And all over these forums, I see people yelling at KWA because within a couple of days, their mags leak. This is not KWA's fault most of the time, its the metal fill nozzles. Propane adapters that are made from plastic do not have this problem. I have never put a metal fill nozzle in any one of my mags and I have never had a single leaky mag or have had to replace a fill valve. My M9 is approaching 4 years old and the magazines still are as airtight as the day I bought them. The plastic propane adapters are the way to go and keep your mags nice and airtight. I firmly believe that the Green Gas metal fill valves cause more problems than the Green Gas prevents by a long shot.

Thats my 2 cents.

Edited by BENboBEN, 21 January 2013 - 01:56 PM.


#8 CDNRogue

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 02:36 PM

Great info... thanks! Not sure I can get worthington propane tanks, but will certainly take a look. I agree on the Colman leaving residue. I agree with the metal nozzle, that is why I have a plastic fitting on my GG tanks! The PITA (pain in the a$$) thing is I sometimes loose my plastic fitting. Good points made though!

#9 BENboBEN

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostCDNRogue, on 21 January 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Great info... thanks! Not sure I can get worthington propane tanks, but will certainly take a look. I agree on the Colman leaving residue. I agree with the metal nozzle, that is why I have a plastic fitting on my GG tanks! The PITA (pain in the a$$) thing is I sometimes loose my plastic fitting. Good points made though!
You can find Worthington at Wal-Mart.

#10 Chuck S

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:35 PM

Some of this stuff is funny!  ;)  Like my daddy used to ask me "So you know more about this than the engineers who designed and built it?"

Unless KWA is a major stock owner in a "green gas" manufacturing factory there is no reason for them to recommend it other than it provides a more reliable and lower maintenance system.  Their exclusion of propane during the warranty period is based on the same rationale, they don't want to make unnecessary free repairs to their guns, they have a reputation to hold on to.

There is no real reason not to run 87 octane gasoline in your Shelby or Roush Mustang either and it saves a few bucks per tank...

Don't get me wrong I have no doubts many are getting reliable operation from propane and dribbling in some silicone oil from time to time.

-- Chuck

#11 Outlaw1995

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:38 PM

Few things. I have to agree with BenboBen, I have heard that Worthington is much better than coleman. BUT with that said, here's the thing...


View PostCDNRogue, on 21 January 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

Read above ... everything is correct. If you still don't believe it , read below...
http://www.airsoft-i...een-gas-propane
CDNRogue, don't you think a company who provides a propane adapter is trying to pull their marketing scheme just so that you buy their product? They would say mustard is good for the gun as well if they were to come out with a mustard adapter tomorrow...

In any event, I reiterate. KWA has done EXTENSIVE TESTING on this propane vs green gas issue, and I'm just stating the facts. These are the true facts that came from tests conducted by a reputable company, not an experienced airsofter testing in his backyard. Propane does increase felt kick back, it does wear the internals due to the harder kick and it CAN (and has been known to) destroy people's guns. KWA's gas blow back guns are designed to be used with green gas, only.

I cannot write this again for fear I will go mad. LOL

Like I said, your mileage may vary. I choose green gas, I choose to spend extra money on my guns, but that's my opinion. You are all entitled to yours. :)

#12 Outlaw1995

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostChuck S, on 21 January 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Some of this stuff is funny!  ;)  Like my daddy used to ask me "So you know more about this than the engineers who designed and built it?"

Unless KWA is a major stock owner in a "green gas" manufacturing factory there is no reason for them to recommend it other than it provides a more reliable and lower maintenance system.  Their exclusion of propane during the warranty period is based on the same rationale, they don't want to make unnecessary free repairs to their guns, they have a reputation to hold on to.

There is no real reason not to run 87 octane gasoline in your Shelby or Roush Mustang either and it saves a few bucks per tank...

Don't get me wrong I have no doubts many are getting reliable operation from propane and dribbling in some silicone oil from time to time.

-- Chuck
Words of wisdom. Thank you! Lol

#13 CDNRogue

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostOutlaw1995, on 21 January 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

CDNRogue, don't you think a company who provides a propane adapter is trying to pull their marketing scheme just so that you buy their product? They would say mustard is good for the gun as well if they were to come out with a mustard adapter tomorrow...
Not sure your point? The original question is whether propane is better, worse or the same as green gas. The website was for information that compares the two. Infact, even through they sell propane adapters, if you read the study, it implies green gas is better. It also suggests that propane can be used a low cost alternative as BenboBen has noted in his write-up. My point was not to push a product. I don't use their stuff. Sorry.
.
.
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damn, now I am hungry!

Good discussion and I like your post Chuck S!

PS as for octane, its used for high compression engines such as turbo and supercharged engines. Octane provides better combustion at higher pressures which results in more power for the same volume of fuel. They don't do anything for mileage as you noted. Education is wonderful!

Worthington propane, do they have it at Target? There is a Target across the river in Buffalo.

SPANKYDAHAMSTR search the internet, you will find all sorts of info including videos and opinions. This is probably your best bet to make an informed decision. I don't think you will go wrong either way.

Edited by CDNRogue, 21 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.


#14 R_King91303

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:03 PM

View PostChuck S, on 21 January 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:


Unless KWA is a major stock owner in a "green gas" manufacturing factory there is no reason for them to recommend it other than it provides a more reliable and lower maintenance system.  Their exclusion of propane during the warranty period is based on the same rationale, they don't want to make unnecessary free repairs to their guns, they have a reputation to hold on to.


KWA does have their own brand of green gas.

However, for what it is worth I have attempted to run propane in my KZ75 under different temperature conditions but always encounter cycling issues.


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#15 BENboBEN

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

View PostChuck S, on 21 January 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

Unless KWA is a major stock owner in a "green gas" manufacturing factory there is no reason for them to recommend it other than it provides a more reliable and lower maintenance system.  Their exclusion of propane during the warranty period is based on the same rationale, they don't want to make unnecessary free repairs to their guns, they have a reputation to hold on to.
I will argue that GG is not more reliable. For one, I mentioned the metal fill nozzle. Look in the threads for each gun on here and in every one, someone will start a post yelling at KWA because "I use nothing but GG and I've had the gun for a week, now all my mags leak, KWA sucks!" and I get tired of those posts. The metal fill nozzles are pure torture to the fill valve.

So, why does KWA recomend GG only? I agree with them for doing it. It narrows down where problems come from in their repair center. I cannot imagine how many times they get people shipping their guns in because of a swollen bucking. Propane problems come from people who don't know how to maintain their guns. For one, a lot of people buy the AI propane adapter, for good reason, its a great adapter. But it comes with this little bottle of really thin silicon oil that is terrible in the guns. But most people who buy the adapter, use the oil. The rest of the people hear that they need to use silicon oil, but aren't experienced. They pick the cheapest and easiest to find oil, naturally, which is the spray stuff.

GG is not anymore reliable than propane, as I have shown with my experience. Propane does require maintenance, and not a lot people cant, or wont do this simple maintenance. I will not be told that GG is better flat out. To the general public, it is. And to the majority of KWA's customers it is. But that is because they do not know the proper maintenance, and either over lube, use the wrong oil, or screw up in some other way.

GG creates a level of sameness for all of KWA's customers. They just need to use the gas, thats it. But with propane, there is so much the general population can do wrong. It's not that either is anymore reliable, its that its easier for KWA to have a sameness with all customers if they use GG. Any product you make and sell will have aspects that, over time, will fail. If you know whats going to fail due to unpreventable wear and tear, instead of customers screwing something up, its a lot easier to run a repair center. Less variables in what goes wrong, easier to fix. Its the same thing as how Ford tells me I need to use their motor oil in my truck. Its less variables that people can screw up. And I completely agree with and understand why KWA tells people to use it. But it's wrong to say that under every circumstance GG is better than propane.

#16 gcw360

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 05:30 PM

No one has mentioned that commercial propane has different gas mixes in different geographies to account for the environment that the gas is typically is used in....hot, cold, etc.  Assuming you can get the correct gas mixture of commercial propane, and the right amount of silicone in the mix, then perhaps the gun would operate consistently.

Now, KWA has reported that guns coming in for repairs, after having used propane, have a residue not seen with green gas.  What the residue is, I do not know.  Presumably it is from one of the additives to the gas mix.

If you want to use commercial propane, have at it.  I would wait till the warranty has expired but that's me.  As long as you keep the gun properly maintained (cleaned and lubricated) you may very well be okay.

#17 BENboBEN

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Posted 21 January 2013 - 07:23 PM

Exactly, thats what I'm saying. It requires maintenance. Its basic maintenance, but more than what most people do.

#18 Chuck S

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:35 AM

Ben --

I don't doubt your good experiemce with propane.  The problem is your experience is that of one guy.

I'm sure there's someone out there lubricating his 5.56mm M4 Carbine or AR15 with KY-Jelly with no problems.  But don't expect a big DOD contract for this stuff to replace military CLP.  :)

Use our-of-spec products at your own risk.  When in doubt RTFM, those factory boys actually test this stuff and occasionally know what they're doing.

The price of green gas is, of course, obscene.  I have no insider knowledge but am convinced the cans are all filled at one or two places and they put whatever label the customer wants -- this is called private labelling.  You can bet KWA is buying green gas as well as buying their branded BBs.

-- Chuck

#19 R_King91303

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 07:40 AM

View PostChuck S, on 22 January 2013 - 07:35 AM, said:

I'm sure there's someone out there lubricating his 5.56mm M4 Carbine or AR15 with KY-Jelly with no problems.  

That just made my morning :D


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#20 SPANKYDAHAMSTR

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 11:15 AM

HAHA WOW

I found it, the hot topic over night that causes the raising of the colors and beating of the drums. I hadn't intended on such a sweltering debate. I just was curious and tired of watching videos of children making youtube videos about how they know so much and need so little.

I find that these children are nothing more than confident, education has nothing to do with their abilities. I went to "College" at CalPolySLO for Aerospace Engineering and though I can't claim that I am an expert on silicone or rubber O-rings, flow dynamics are certainly in my repertoire of  tricks and all I wanted was some evidence. I believe that KWA did extensive testing and I don't feel the need to make a fuss against this. I am fully confident in their recommendations to all users little and adult to make their marvelous product last.
I also believe because I'm a cleaning freak when it comes to all types of weapons I'll be alright with propane for now. I have one suggestion for KWA when it comes to flow benching there magazines; I for see an area for improvement and its at the flow nozzle atop all KWA mags. It's square? Why? not smooth in any fashion? It would improve flow or at least make it more efficient which in turn could make their gas efficiency even better. Now this might be on purpose due to testing however I believe in logic prevailing and its only logical that this area should be cylindrical or elliptical this would improve flow at its current size or if made small would keep current performance with even better efficiency. Maybe next generation :tsuki:

As always, with love

KWA fanboy!!




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