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Let's Talk Long Range


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#1 vanevery

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

Long Range
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I will have a full / in depth write up on long range coming soon.
This will include video of my DMR shooting at long distances measured off with different inner barrel set-ups.
Long Distance being at 100 yards and out.
Based on my guns shooting performance today, looks like I need more measuring tape than just 100 yards.
The purpose of this post is because it will be at least a couple of months before I complete all of the testing on my DMR and just wanted to share some preliminary info as to where I am at with it right now.
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I have been interested in shooting long range since I got into airsoft and I find the subject of interest
I have even done a few DMR set-ups through the years but never had the right complete set-up to achieve the performance that I was expecting. Right set-up being all the right gearbox components, optimal inner barrel / bucking / nub combo, motor, and battery and everything performing to spec. I have come close a couple times before, but there was always one of the things mentioned above that just was not working in optimal cohesion with the other. I decided at the beginning of this year that 2012 would not end without a completion of a DMR that performs as I intend and where everything installed works up to spec.
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DMR Goals:
- Long Range
To achieve long range you have to first define long range.
This is not the same definition for everyone who is interested in the subject and who builds guns to achieve it.
For me, the benchmark is and has always been 100 yards / 300 feet.......as a starting point.
For some, 100 yards seems to be an impressive distance while others almost scoff at it.
Scoffers seem to think that because their stock m4 can point to the sky and shoot 100 yards with .20's while the wind is at their back that somehow there a member of the sniper community. This mind you with groupings of + / - sixty yards
Others may scoff for they post ridiculous claims stating their DMR can hit 8 of 10 on a doorknob 475 feet away.
100 yards, in my view, is the distance barrier that needs to be achieved if one wants to qualify themselves as a long range shooter.
The distance itself, though impressive in my view, is unimpressive if shots are not accurate.
As a shooter, it does not mean anything to shoot and have no idea whatsoever where your shot is going, round characteristics in its trajectory, and where your shot ends up, and to know why.
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- Accuracy at long range
Accuracy can have different interpretations as well.
I am not sure that I have arrived at a firm definition of accuracy yet myself, more like a grading scale of accuracy.
5 of 10 is accuracy.
6/7 of 10  good accuracy.
8/9 of 10 great accuracy.
10 of 10, of course, perfect accuracy.
Remember, we are talking about accuracy at long range, not just standard accuracy.
100 yard  / 300 foot benchmark.
To achieve the above shooting performance at will as a result of shooting skill and have a weapon built to do it is pretty impressive.
My specific accuracy goal is to be able to hit 8 of 10 at will at 100 yards any and every time I shoot at this distance.
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- Consistency: Accuracy
Anybody can have a good day where everything just seems to go there way on the airsoft field.
As a shooter, it is important to know that from the first shot to the last your rounds are going to hit the target and the shots that do not, why they do not.
Hitting the target on the first shot at long range proves who your shooters really are.
This is only possible from a firm understanding of the skill that goes into shooting specifically at long range and from having put the time in on the range to have such knowledge.
This includes but is not limited to:
1. Understanding wind and over-all weather conditions, as well as how both affect the specific distance you are shooting at.
2. Scope settings and specifics.
3. Hop-up settings and specifics.
4. BB weight and BB brand characteristics.
5. Shooting posture, breathing, grip, trigger pull, gun rest position, and elevation.
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- Consistency: Gun Durability
Any tech can build a gun to break, thus giving peak performance for a limited number of rounds before the gearbox implodes. It is important to have a gun that does not break down during the day or ever between maintenance cycles. It is just as part of the DNA of long range shooting to be the tech that built the gun you are shooting, like a race car driver who is the mechanic that built the race car. It matters.
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So.....
After a few months of doing some extensive research on the subject of building a DMR, assembling a parts list, and doing some pre-DIY mods to have ready when it came time for assembly, it was time to see what I had. The base platform gun is a KWA 2gx m16. My biggest problem with my previous DMR builds was changing out KWA compression parts for after-market parts that were not compatible wit the brand.
I have used after-market compression parts in my KWA's before that were compatible, but those were for other projects. I like to constantly try new things and it just so happened the new parts I tried that did not work so well was when I was putting together a DMR. This time I went with the stock compression parts and the appropriate DIY compression mods to the compression parts.
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The set-up went as follows:
Internals:
Gearbox -
- Promy m135 Spring.
- Sponge cut to size and inserted into forward 5 coils of spring for Sound Absorbing.
- Bravo Ported Aluminum Piston Head w/brand new Danco #14 O-ring.
- System Supercore Piston w/ 2nd tooth shaved off, 3rd tooth filed down by 2/3rds, and 4th tooth filed down by 1/3rd.
- A&K Full / Type O Cylinder.
- KWA Cylinder Head w/ Gasket Sealant mod to the Cylinder.
- 3/4 Rubber Washer added to the Cylinder head Sorbo after Gasket Sealant mod was completed. This was permanently secured to the Cylinder Head Sorbo and inner Cylinder wall with 100% clear silicone bond.
- Brand new KWA Male Trigger Contact.
- Bravo ARL (Anti Reversal Latch).
- Shimming of gears.
- AOE (Angle of Engagement): Perfect 12 O'clock Sector Gear / Piston engagement - thanks to the addition of 3/4 rubber washer.
- Grease: Superlube for lower gearbox shell and gears. 30wt RC/ Shock oil for upper gearbox, piston rails, piston head, 0-ring, and inner cylinder.
Motor:
AMP T5000L High Torque Motor.
Inner Barrels:
Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb
MadBull 590mm / 6.03 tbb
Hop-up Unit: Stock KWA
Bucking: G&G Green Bucking
FPS: 475 w/ Crossman .20's


Externals:
- SR-16 Flip-up Rear Sight.
- D-Boy Sniper Grip.
- KWA Gen1 m4 complete upper assembly.
- UTG M4 HandGuards and Rail Covers.
- JBU JB31 Mock Suppressor.
- MagPul AFG( Angled Fore Grip).
- Echo1 m16 Sling Adapter.
- UTG Low-profile / Full Size Scope Riser Mount.
- AIM 3 - 9 x 40 Rubber Scope.


Performance was very good.
All distances are measured off using a 300'' tape measure.
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Performance specifics / using .30's and Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb
- 40 yards: 10 of 10
- 50 yards: 9 of 10
- 60 yards: 8 of 10
- 70 yards: 6 of 10
- 80 yards: 6 0f 10
- 90 yards: 5 of 10
- 100 yards: 5 of 10


Performance with MadBull .40 bb's:
- 40 yards:  10 of 10
- 50 yards:  10 of 10
- 60 yards:  10 of 10
- 70 yards:   8 of 10
- 80 yards:   6 of 10
- 90 yards:   5 of 10
- 100 yards: 5 of 10
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I put this gun through an estimated 25,000 rounds of testing consisting of ten total days over a two month period.
Distance was measured off every time data was collected.
The gun performed at optimal performance for 25,000 rounds until I noticed a decrease in FPS and an ever so slight drop in shooting performance. Time for maintenance.
Upon opening the gun for maintenance I identified a completely worn out O-ring as the cause for the loss in compression. The O-ring was visibly and noticeably smaller than it was in original brand new condition.
I estimate the O-ring lost between 1/4 and 1/3 of its original size.


So.....
I would say my official entry into the world of long range is a success.
I accomplished all of my goals except for being able to hit 8 of 10 from 100 yards consistently.
Now that my gearbox was open for maintenance anyway, it was decision time.
____________________________________________________________________


Time to Up the Performance:


Having a brand new MadBull m150 spring laying around and a lightly used Guarder SP150 laying around, I had to decide if it was worth having a gun that might cause me problems passing chrono at some fields and for some games. Being that my goal was to get the most performance out of my gun and that my gearbox and all components are tailor made for an m150 set up, the decision was made.
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My current set-up now consists of all internals being the exact same except for three things.
1. Main spring is now a Guarder SP150.
2. Viton X-ring instead of O-ring.
3. Re-shim in order to accommodate the SP150 spring vs the current shim job to accommodate the m135 spring.


Performance stats:
Official performance stats will come later as today was the first day I put this gun through its paces.
I will say this about the guns performance today given the changes that were made.
I have never hit the target at 100 yards so many over-all times before than I did today.
I will put it like this: I hit the target today at 100 yards more times than the previous 10 testing days combined.
This was using MadBull .40's
I also could not have asked for a better day weather wise. Essentially no breeze or wind the entire day.
Usually even a light breeze can cause problems shooting long range in an open field.
MY consistency need to be improved on, however, for I had too many streaks of hitting several shots on target continuously and then missing several shots continuously. I will get that worked out.
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What Now:
When I have officially completed all my testing, I will document everything my DMR can do on video and most likely do so including all the inner barrel set-up's I use with this gun. This will hopefully be ready to go in the next three months.


Please feel free to offer any thoughts or suggestions on the subject of long range and/or my specific post.


Edited by vanevery, 28 September 2013 - 01:18 PM.


#2 gcw360

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 08:48 AM

Nice write-up.  Can you please clarify the target and size?  Is it the blue barrel or the open mailbox?  It I missed that, I apologize.

#3 vanevery

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:29 AM

As far as the posted accuracy results, that is using the blue drum as my target.
Height: 34.5 inches. Diameter: 23 inches
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The mailbox was used for the first time yesterday to try it and to mix it up while shooting.
I was in fact able to pust a handful of bb's inside the mailbox at 100  yards on purpose.
I was also quite surprised not only that it was possible to do so, but not that difficult.
It is a Huge Mailbox, by the way.
Posted Image

Edited by vanevery, 28 September 2013 - 01:21 PM.


#4 gcw360

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

Thanks Van!

#5 sdk1968

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 08:12 AM

thats some good shooting and a nice write up.

#6 niko_gpsy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 08:16 AM

So was the 566FPS using a Guarder SP150?  I was getting 575FPS when the spring was brand new using stock KWA bucking without cylinder head mod.  Now after few thousand rounds the spring has settled to 565FPS with 0.20.   Just comparing numbers here.
I may just do away with the entire rhop and go with the G&G green bucking and use a shredder concave nub. Although I can confirm a 310ft range with my setup I am just not sure if that is a usable range.  I can hit a house at that distance for sure!  LOL

Thanks for the write up Van.  :thumbsup:

#7 vanevery

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:30 PM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 09 November 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

So was the 566FPS using a Guarder SP150?  I was getting 575FPS when the spring was brand new using stock KWA bucking without cylinder head mod.  Now after few thousand rounds the spring has settled to 565FPS with 0.20.   Just comparing numbers here.
I may just do away with the entire rhop and go with the G&G green bucking and use a shredder concave nub. Although I can confirm a 310ft range with my setup I am just not sure if that is a usable range.  I can hit a house at that distance for sure!  LOL
Thanks for the write up Van.  Posted Image

Hi Niko.
I appreciate your interest in the subject.

As far as the Guarder Sp150 spring goes, I have used this spring before in a couple of other guns over the last couple of years but with very little use. I would estimate the spring hade somehere around 2500-3000 rounds on it before I dropped it in my current set-up. Maybe the spring has settled a bit.
I did in fact have higher fps with this spring when it was brand new. Your numbers of 575fps seems about right.
You probably have an occasional burst of 600fps with your spring at that fps, I assume. I had a few bursts like that when my SP150 was new.
I think that having the 3/4 Rubber Washer as Sorbo secured over the stock KWA sorbo has taken away a very small amount of cylinder volume and over-all distance for the spring travel. That may come into play as far as fps readings go.

I can tell you though, that any loss in fps is not noticable, quite the opposite.
Just as you say you are getting 310' shots, I can vouch for getting more distance than 300'.
I was not joking in my OP when I stated "Based on my guns shooting performance today, looks like I need more measuring tape than just 100 yards"
This weekend I will be going to Home Depot to pick up another 100' of measuring tape.
I am not claiming my gun can hit the target at 400'.
I am simply saying that I have got more to give than only 300'.
I will be working my way back 10 yards at a time to see what the guns limits are.

G&G Green Bucking: A few points on this.
The inner barrel I tested with my new SP150 set-up was my Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb bought from the KWA Pro Shop
The Barrel Window on it is cut with stock KWA deminsions.
KWA Barrel Windows are smaller than TM Spec.
The bucking mound on the G&G Green is very beefy.
This makes installing the G&G Green with KWA barrels and Pro Shop Edgi's into the KWA Hop-up unit very difficult.
I use the 30wt shock oil swabbed into the hop-up unit and on the bucking to do so.
Dry installs are close to impossible with the this bucking and KWA cut barrel windows installed into KWA hop-up units.
By comparison, I can do dry installs with my MadBull Inner Barrels and the G&G Green bucking into my KWA hop-up units and have everything properly seated in 1-2 seconds.

One more thing:
I have been reading over the last couple of years every thread on this and other forums relating to anything long range.
R-hop. Flat-hop, Sniper. You name it, I have read it.
I have read so many people claiming that their gun can do this and that.
I am not and have no intention on being that guy.
I am a " gotta see it with my own eyes" and " if you claim it, you better be able to prove it when everyone is watching" kind of guy.
When I tell you that I can shoot into a mailbox at 100 yards, I can prove it. It is a large mailbox, though.
Posted Image

I have one more day of testing to complete with my new set-up and will then make a video demonstrating the capabilities of the gun.
I will then begin advertising and inviting others im my local community and letting them know when and where I set up my firing lane so they can come out and demonstrate their own guns capabilities or just see for themselves what my gun can do.
I am also in the beginning stages of planning a long shot tournament that will have several different styles of targets - moving and stationary - set at distances beginning at 100 yards.

Also:
I actually have already entered the world of Flat-hop but have only tested thus far with 3 different KWA 395mm inner barrels.
This is using home mad nubs to mimic the FireFly Buffer Rubber.
I have also Flat-hopped 5 different buckings.
I hit the mark with one of my bucking  / nub combos but not with the other two.
When I complete all of my Flat-hop testing, I will post a video of that too.
Here are some of my Home-Made nubs:
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

R-hop is on the test agenda but will come later.

Edited by vanevery, 28 September 2013 - 01:28 PM.


#8 niko_gpsy

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

That nub looks awesome!  One thing to note is that the flat side may need to be a bit thicker since it can flex unless that material is harder than it looks.  But that is a very good buffer rubber though.  And it may only have taken like 4 hours. lol

#9 Killa

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 08:35 AM

How's the testing going? I am very interested in what you are doing.

#10 Dirt Bag

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

Great post vanevery! Not sure how I didn't see this sooner.  I read it a few times this morning. I actually blame you for making me late to work this morning!  Lol



#11 vanevery

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 12:00 AM

View PostKilla, on 04 December 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

How's the testing going? I am very interested in what you are doing.

View PostDirt Bag, on 04 December 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Great post vanevery! Not sure how I didn't see this sooner.  I read it a few times this morning. I actually blame you for making me late to work this morning!  Lol

What's up fellas?
Glad to see more and more intereted in the subject of long range.
Dirt Bag: That is funny about being late for work.
Posted Image

I have been out twice since my OP to the same field to put the gun through its paces.
Both times were different weather wise than previous outings.
The difference was a head wind. I usually have a cross wind or a tail wind.
The head wind made things very challenging for long range,
The first of the two days dealing with it I finally gave up because I was only able to hit 1 of 20  at 100 yards and it was just a waste of good ammo. The second of the two days was much better in that the wind was not as strong and would die off for long periods of time giving me mostly calm conditions.

In these two days I was able to put the KWA motor thru about 800 rounds with this gun and I was also finally able again to use my Bravo Xyclone High Torqu motor with it. The stock pinion gear on this motor turned to better in less than 2000 rounds.
My Bravo High Speed motor pinion did the same thing in a different gun. I bought some SHS D-type pinion gears and was able to get it them the mail in time to install it and test it Thanksgiving weekend.

The rest that I have covered since the OP would include:

1. Full day of testing a Lonex 70 degree Bucking. I highly reccommend it, especially for KWA Hop-ups. I think this bucking might work really well in high speed guns as well. The mound is tiny and makes over-hop almost impossible, though the rubber is 70 degree. I have only used it with a Nub-mod because I did not want to take the chance of not enough hop at 100 yards.
I will come back to it or buy another one and drop it other KWA guns without the use of the nub'Mod.

2. Finished all testing with my MadBull 590mm / 6.03.
This inner barrel works great with my Full / Type O cylinder and compression mods. It is a bit over volumed, though, and loses its MoJo past 90 yards, It is very good to 90 yards though and I will field this set-up. The over-volume causes me to have lower FPS than a 509mm yet not lose too much performance. This will help with field chrono restrictions for DMR.

3. Finally got to test my all time favorite after market  inner barrel- for the cost- a MadBull 509mm / 6.03tbb.
I by far had the straightest shots to date at 100 yards with this inner barrel and a G&G Green bucking.
I came short of the target more than I would have liked that day, but I was shooting into the wind.
Again decided to call it a day early to save ammo.

I did go ahead and buy another 100' of measuring tape.
I have not had a chance to roll it out yet but will try this weekend.
I brought it with me both outings, but was pointless to roll it out and trying super long shots into a head wind.
Posted Image

I have some more things to throw at the gun before I make a video and demonstrate what it can do.
Three more inner barrels, two more buckings, finish Flat-hop testing, and begin R-hop.
I know that this is taking a long time to get to, but I want everybase covered before I go public with a video. I want to be able to answer everyones questions with a compleely tested product and not have any ? remain.

Edited by vanevery, 28 September 2013 - 01:33 PM.


#12 Killa

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:24 AM

when you did the (- Sponge cut to size and inserted into forward 5 coils of spring for Sound Absorbing.) mod.

How affective is this?

#13 vanevery

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Posted 06 December 2012 - 02:15 PM

View PostKilla, on 06 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

when you did the (- Sponge cut to size and inserted into forward 5 coils of spring for Sound Absorbing.) mod.

How affective is this?

I find it very effective in terms of absorbing sound reverb.
It is not going to lower the decibel level as far as when the piston head initially slams into the cylinder head.
It does, however, contribute to cleaning up reverb sound which can lead to crisper sounding shots and a quieter over-all gearbox.

I have been doing this for years and have experimented with it in many different ways.
To date, I have found that less length of sponge, and greater thickness is a better approach.
It does not have to be only 5 coils in length.
I would not, however, go any shorter in length than 5 coils for this mod to have a noticeable effect.

The length you cut the sponge depends mostly on your set-up.
First, a couple general rules.
1. Never cut the sponge longer than half the length of the main spring. Doing so can lead to piston jams.
2.Cutting the sponge for thickness over length has more sound absorbing effect.

You gearbox set-up can dictate how many coils you cut the sponge in length.
This is because the more powerful your gun set-up is, the harder your battery and motor will have to work with this mod than without it. A very thick cut sponge seems to stiffen the spring a little bit, at least as far as the drivetrain pulling it and the power source pushing it. Over lengthening the sponge can lead to jams, even in high speed set-ups with light main springs.

#14 vanevery

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:10 PM

Just want to give an update to this thread.

Posted Image

Since my OP, I have gone out to this same to further test this DMR with more inner barrels, buckings, and motors.

- I finished all testing with my 590mm/6.03tbb.

- Put a stock KWA motor in for comparison and also now have installed the motor I originally bought for this project, a Bravo Xyclone High Torque. This Bravo's motor pinion gear turned to butter in less than 2000 rounds in my previous DMR.

- I finally got around to buying a replacement pinion gear and it now has a SHS pinion gear, D-Type.

- Finally got to use my all time favorite after-market inner barrel for the price: MadBull 509mm / 6.03tbb.

- Also have put a couple thousand rounds thru a Lonex 70 Degree bucking.

This is quickly becoming my favorite bucking.

- Did in fact purchase another 100' of measuring tape.

Posted Image

Performance of Note:

- To date, the straightest and most accurate shots have been with a MadBull 509mm / 6.03 with a Lonex 70 Degree buckung and Nub Mod.The Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb and a G&G Green bucking is a very close second.

Will see how the Edgi does with the Lonex 70 degree later on.

- Today was the first day I rolled out the extra 100' of measuring tape.

- I moved out to 110 yards / 330' for the first time.

I hit 24 of an estimated 80 shots taken. Most of this in 3 round semi-auto bursts from 11 - 1 O'clock with the reticle set above the target. I did hit one shot in semi-auto / single shot but it took several shots to finally hit the target this way. Semi-Auto Burst Fire was much more effective. Will come back to this again.

I want semi-auto / single shot accuracy, not burst fire.

- Moved out to 120 yards / 360 feet, shot 20 shots and had no hits, battery then died.

Will come back to this again for another crack at it.

400 Feet to Target:

Table is set at 110 yards / 330 feet in this picture.

Posted Image

What Now:

I have more buckings, inner barrels, and nubs to test.

I am in the middle of Flat-hop testing and will get to R-hop when finished with Flat-hop.

When I am in the R-hop stage, I will begin to put together a video of this DMR's capabilities.

General Thoughts:

I am getting the feeling that 400 foot accurate shots are possible.

This is the same type of feeling I had about 300' accurate shots long before I was able to do it.

What type of FPS that will take or if my DMR as it stands now can do it, I do not know.

It is important to have a gun that is able to be fielded, but a wow build is fun too.

400 foot accuracy is now my goal and will have lots of fun trying to get there.


Edited by vanevery, 28 September 2013 - 03:55 PM.


#15 Killa

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

View Postvanevery, on 06 December 2012 - 02:15 PM, said:

I find it very effective in terms of absorbing sound reverb.
It is not going to lower the decibel level as far as when the piston head initially slams into the cylinder head.
It does, however, contribute to cleaning up reverb sound which can lead to crisper sounding shots and a quieter over-all gearbox.

I have been doing this for years and have experimented with it in many different ways.
To date, I have found that less length of sponge, and greater thickness is a better approach.
It does not have to be only 5 coils in length.
I would not, however, go any shorter in length than 5 coils for this mod to have a noticeable effect.

The length you cut the sponge depends mostly on your set-up.
First, a couple general rules.
1. Never cut the sponge longer than half the length of the main spring. Doing so can lead to piston jams.
2.Cutting the sponge for thickness over length has more sound absorbing effect.

You gearbox set-up can dictate how many coils you cut the sponge in length.
This is because the more powerful your gun set-up is, the harder your battery and motor will have to work with this mod than without it. A very thick cut sponge seems to stiffen the spring a little bit, at least as far as the drivetrain pulling it and the power source pushing it. Over lengthening the sponge can lead to jams, even in high speed set-ups with light main springs.

That is very interesting, i must try this next time i get a chance. Next time you open up your gearbox and if you remember, can you take a picture of your spring with the sponge in it? Just so i have a reference. THat would be great thank you.

#16 vanevery

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Posted 10 March 2013 - 05:38 PM

I wanted to give an update as to what I have been doing since my last post and talk about my day at the range today.
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Well, it has been a very interesting journey over the last few months.
I have learned and discovered things I never thought I would.
Everything from.....
- Performance of different weight bb's (washed and un-washed)
- Body control / proper shooting technique
- Nutrition and shooting
- Flat-hop vs R-hop vs Standard Nubs
- Hop-up Unit modifications
- Barrel Lock-Down
- Inner barrel Vibration-Control
- Standing vs seated/prone position
- Gun rest position
- Scope Sighting correctly
- Iron Sight setting correctly
- The interesting things you see when looking thru a scope for long periods of time
- Weather and shooting:
1. Wind, don't even get me started on wind
2. Temperature
3. Air Pressure and Magnus Effect
4. Barometric Pressure
- Flat field vs Elevation
I will go into detail on all the above later on as I continue the discussion of shooting at long range.
For now, I will keep things a bit more simple.

Since my last post, I have gone out to the range 6 times.
My focus has mostly been on Flat-hopping and pushing the limits of all conventional wisdom related to Flat-hop. You can learn about the Flat-hop here: http://www.airsoftfo...pt-t220183.html
All of my inner barrels have been tested/used now in my DMR and I am very pleased with the performance of Home-Made Nubs when compared to stock and off the shelf nubs.
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Some things of note:
- FPS Loss:
My gun has a severe FPS loss from the initial install of the SP150 Spring.
Was 565 FPS. Now 495FPS and dropping. This being measured while using 509mm inner barrels.
Upon installing the 455mm inner barrel today, I noticed a major gain in FPS with my DMR consistently chronoing at 540 FPS.
I have been waiting to test this 455mm inner barrel last for I have always thought that my Full / Type O Cylinder along with various compression mods would simply be over-volumed as a system for the 455mm barrel.
I have in fact read for years on sniper forums the benefits of a 455mm inner barrel vs a 509mm, but dismissed it for this particular gun due to the previously stated.

- Hitting at 330':
This has become common now.
Consistently hitting the target at this distance is no big deal, even Drop-in buckings can do this.
Accuracy at this distance is another story.
I have yet, until today, been able to hit as many as 5 of 10 at this distance.
Usually, I average 3 of 10 on target at this distance, no matter what is in my Hop-up unit.

Today at the Range:
What a day, that is for sure.
Really, we should back up and talk about the hours leading up to it.
I knew I would be going to the range on Sunday.
I knew I would be trying some new things.

The plan:
1, Use a 455mm inner barrel and no Barrel Lock Down. First time using anything shorter than a 509mm with this gun.
2. Use MadBull .43 bb's. First time using bb weight greater than .40.
3. Flat-hop a Lonex 70 Degree bucking. First time flat-hopping this particular bucking
4. Use a Home-Made Nub.
5. Roll out 400' of measuring tape.
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Even though I prefer Home-Made Nubs vs others, I just received a shipment in on Friday which contained some Nubs I ordered.
Nubs ordered:
1. A FireFly Buffer Rubber(hard) to replace the one I had that only lasted for six uses.
2. A set of Prommy Hop-up Tensioner Nubs. Contains one hard and one soft. These are clones of the FireFly Buffer Rubber.
I had intended to buy the Prommy nubs a while ago but never did due to bad reviews of them, but they were in stock and I just decided "go for it".
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So, I thought it would be a good idea to use the FireFly Buffer Rubber for the sake of establishing a baseline of performance with this particular set-up. Well, this thing was just not working in the install process. I forgot that I had trimmed the width of my previous one for the KWA hop-up unit. It was constantly getting stuck in the Hop-up unit and time was running out to get to the range. I decided to drop in a unmodified Lonex 70 Degree bucking, throw in a Nub-Mod, and get out the door.

First thing I noticed when I got out of my car at the field: No Wind.
I knew this was going to be a good day, but it did not go well at first.
Whenever I drop in a barrel never used before in a gun, I always begin at 10 yards(30') and work my way back to 50 yards(150').
At 50 yards(150'), I make sure my gun is dialed in and everything working perfectly. I do not move out past 50 yards(150') until hitting 10 of 10 on target in tight groupiings at this distance. What is the measure for tight groupings at 50 yards you may ask, this:
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I find that being consistently perfect at 50 yards(150') with tight groupings sets up the best odds for success when shooting at 100 yards(300') and out. Not being perfect at 50 yards(150') usually means a lot of wasted ammo at 100 yards(300') and out. When shooting past 50 yards, I use the center of the man-sized target as the baseline for accuracy and shoot into the MailBox for the fun/novelty of it.
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So, at 30 yards(90'), I noticed my bb's immediately hooking left and then curving right.
After many adjustments at this distance and out to 50 yards, I was still not shooting perfectly straight but was shooting a manageable offset.
I knew that unless I got this straightened out, it would be a long day when I got to 100 yards and out.
So I decided to remove the Nub-Mod to see what would happen. Immediately everything improved, but was not perfect. With a couple more adjustments, things were looking good.

I began to settle in at 60 yards(180')
Spending a considerable amount of time at this distance, I was impressed with the results.
My last 10 shot sequence was 10 of 10 on target.
Time to move farther out.

At both 70 yards(210') and 80 yards(240') I lit the target up.
I was as accurate at both of these distances as my best performing Flat-hops had been in my 509mm barrels.
Hitting 8 and 9 out of 10 shots for every 10 shot sequence.
This with a drop-in bucking mind you, and one that has a small bucking mound.

90 yards(270') was still great but not amazing
I averaged between 6 and 7 shots on target for every 10 shot firing sequence.

At 100 yards(300') accuracy was consistent, but not fantastic.
Most 10 shot firing sequences netted 5 shots on target consistently.
Some a couple more, some a couple less, but usually 5 of 10 on target.

Now the fun begins:
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The first Time I ever hit a target from 110 yards(330') was with a Lonex 70 Degree unmodified bucking and a Nub-Mod.
This was the last time I posted in this thread.
Here we are a few months later, and here I am trying to see what this bucking can do, again.
Though hitting at 330' is common now for this DMR with both Flat-hops and Drop-in buckings, accuracy at this distance is not.

I can say that performance today at this distance was in fact better than all my previous time spent at this distance. Not a lot better, but better. Usually I average about 3 of 10 shots at this distance no matter what is in the hop-up unit. Today I averaged 4 of 10 on target at this distance.
I did have couple of firing sequences where I hit 5 of 10 on target and even at one point did hit 6 shots in a row on target at this distance. I have never even come close to doing that before.
I was very pleased with how everything turned out at this distance, and with a Drop-in bucking no less.

Now on to 120 yards (360').
I have never attempted to hit 360' with a Drop-in bucking before.
Never thought it was really possible.
Been doing this with Flat-hops, but not Drop-in buckings.
Based on how well today went at 330', I decided to go for it.
I mean, it's just 30 more feet, right? Right...........................!

So, I went through 4 high cap mags, around 300 rounds per mag, in semi-auto at this distance.
The first 3 mags were shot sitting down at the table and one mag was shot standing in front of the table at 358'.
Out of the first 3 mags and roughly 900 rounds shot, I managed to hit......Drum Roll Please..........
1 shot on target.

Technically, it did not actually hit the target. It hit one of the metal legs of the table the target was sitting on.
I only know that it hit this metal table leg for when the bb's hit the metal table leg, there is a distinct and loud "Ping" sound.
This happens a handful of times every time i go to the range.
This was also with the MadBull .40's.
I kept switching back and forth between the .43's and .40's due to not hitting the taget.

I then decided to stand up, step in front of the table (now at 358'), and only use .43's.
I went through an entire high cap magazine, roughly 300 rounds.
I managed to ht the target.........Drum Roll Pease........
12 times.
So, out of 1200 estimated shots down range at 360'/358', 13 shots made there way to the target.
Why even bother trying you may ask?
Like I said, it was just 30 more feet, right?

So this was my day:
Weather was great.
Lots of ups and downs.
Learned a few things.
Accomplisehed some new things.
Can't wait for the next one.

Edited by vanevery, 28 September 2013 - 05:09 PM.


#17 vanevery

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 12:26 PM

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Went to the range last weekend on Sunday.
Weather was perfect, could barely feel any breeze.
I just knew this was going to be a good day.
I am winding down the testing for this particular maintenance cycle of the gun.
The goal was to get two more days at the range finishing up Flat-hop testing with this DMR and then open up the gun for maintenance and to make some changes. This day with a Flat-hopped G&G Green bucking and my Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb and one day with a Flat-hopped Lonex 70 Degree bucking and  a MadBull 455mm / 6.03tbb

Well, there were some good things to take away from the time spent there this day, but it was not a good day. First my Nub Mod in my FireFly Buffer Rubber was causing accuracy issues.
This is the same Nub Mod I have always used and has always previously seemed to help with accuracy. Now all of a sudden, it is just not helping. Go figure.

Then for some reason, the Mock Barrel Extension was wobbling and getting in the way of bb's exiting the barrel. I had this attached to a Matrix 2'' Outer Barrel Extension. Somehow, the threads on the extension, and then the threads on my Flash Hider mount on the stock Outer Barrel got jacked up. I spent 30 minutes trying to get this corrected and stationary with no luck. I ended up removing the Mock Barrel Extension and continuing my day with the inner barrel extending out of the m4 length outer barrel. This matters because part of my Barrel Stabilization and Lock-down approach takes advantage of the open and accessible space within this specific Mock Outer Barrel Extension: A JBU JB 31 http://www.evike.com...oducts_id=26137

So, now that I have the Nub-Mod issue out of the way and am continuing without the Mock Outer Barrel Extension, I actually got some quality shooting time in. Everything started going really well.
I got everything dialed in at 50 yards - which is my baseline for what to expect at 100 yards - and continued.

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At 90 yards my accuracy was outstanding.
It was as good as I have seen in any combination of inner barrel / Hop-up mod to date.
So, I pick up the table and move out to 100 yards, get set up, pull the trigger and nothing, nada.
First I thought I had a motor wire slip off its motor terminal. Checked that and that was not it.
Then I charged my battery, not it.
Went to a back-up battery, not that either.


I surmised that given all of the electrical stress tests I have been putting this gun through as of late, I must have finally melted a trigger contact. See, one thing I have been keeping under raps is that I deliberately did not dis-engage Full-Auto for this maintenance cycle so that when I got to the end of all I had intended to put this gun through during this specific maintenance cycle, I could close out the testing with electrical stress tests with out-of spec batteries and also do the same regarding the stock Ball Bearing Bushings.


Well, got home and decided to go ahead and open the gearbox to check that Trigger Contact.
I have never melted a KWA trigger contact before so I was curious how it might look.
Well, did not even get that far. Upon removing the motor, the electrical problem was obvious.
It was a broken Motor Brush Spring in my Bravo High Torque Xycone motor.
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So, I used this as an oportunity to not only clean the motor brushes, but to dis-assemble the motor and clean everything.
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So, now I will most likely go ahead and open up the gearbox for maintenance and some changes even though I could get one more day out of it at the range. I have some changes of note that will take place for round three of this ongoing DMR test project for the gearbox, motor, and target system.


I gotta say, I am having a great time with this ongoing DMR test project.
I had several goals at the start of this project last year.
What was once an intent to begin and finish a field usable DMR has become an ongoing test project gun to test everything that relates to the function of an airsoft gun and every new thing I am learning along the way. The knowledge gained through this has allowed me to get DMR range and accuracy out of m4 length inner barrels and less powered springs. So, I can use my m4's for long range and use this specific gun to continue testing and gaining more knowledge.

Edited by vanevery, 10 September 2013 - 04:33 PM.


#18 vanevery

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Posted 08 September 2013 - 07:19 PM

Note:
Will get all the pictures back up in this entire thread.
Re-organized my Photo Bucket account and it broke the links to pictures.
______________________________________


Had an interesting day at the range today.
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Spent 5 hours at the range and tested three inner barrels along with many mods. Lots of ups and downs performance wise, but the day ended well and on a high note. Been a while since I have had a chance to continue progression with my KWA DMR. Work has taken all my time over the last few months.

Status:
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I opened my gun to perform maintenance and to make some changes to prepare it to meet FPS and Joule requirements of some events I am planning on attending soon. I am also trying out some new things, as I always seem to do when I open a gearbox.

Changes:
- Main Spring:SP130 Spring / was SP150 Spring.
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I need to get my FPS to 450fps measured using .25's.
The Guarder SP130 Spring that I installed is used and with several thousand rounds on it.
I installed it as a baseline for testing an FPS that would be close to my goal and allow me to get the gun up and running to test out other mods. I will most likely install a Prommy m135 spring for the final product, or a new Guarder SP 130.

- X-ring for Piston Head:
Stretched X-ring vs Standard X-ring.

- Air Nozzle Mod:
http://www.kwausa.co...wtopic=11708=
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Performance seemed to work just fine.
Needed to make sure that:
1. It worked.
2. BB's fed with no issues as a result of this Mod.
3. No BB's would possibly damage from the Nozzle pushing the BB into the Hop-up Unit without the Cross-Arms.I would say I may have bored it out too much, but more testing will be needed to confirm that.

- Sorbo ID Bored out: http://www.kwausa.co...topic=11455&hl=
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This turned out nice and performed well, I would say.

- Selector Plate Mod / Semi-only:
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This is a very simple mod to do and eliminates the use of Full-Auto entirely.
The main thing is to make sure you stretch out the Selector Plate Spring far enough after modding the Selector Plate itself. Otherwise, if you set the Selector Switch to Full-Auto, it may fall off.This mod worked fine all day, even switching back and forth from Semi-Auto to Full-Auto had no issues. Stretched the spring out appropriately.
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- 9MM 5ku Bushings:
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I really like these.
Had no fitment issues at all regarding the Bushing under the Selector plate nor fitting the gearbox into the lower receiver as some have reported.
Just need to tweak my shimming.

- Wiring:
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I have yet to decide what wiring I will use in the final set-up. I recently received one of niko_gpsy's Mosfets.
I will decide on the wiring within a few weeks. For now, I thought I would test out a Bravo Trigger Contact with a King Arms Drop-in Wire Harness.(Had to solder on both motor wire leads. One broke apart last week when putting the gun together while pre-testing.The other one broke off yesterday).This was mainly to see how the Bravo Trigger Contact handles a Li-po without a mosfet. The Bravo Trigger Contact is quite large and seems to have a very beefy Contact plate.A larger contact plate than I have seen on any other Trigger Contact.
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Inner Barrels / Hop-up Mods:
Note:
No Inner Barrel Lock-down or Inner Barrel Stabilization for these tests. http://www.kwausa.co...topic=11682&hl=
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This was with all stock Hop-up Units utilizing the Free Float design. This was to get a baseline for performance before doing so. Just something I like to do at the beginning of a maintenance cycle.
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I tested three Inner Barrels today.
1. Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb w/ Flat-hopped G%G Green Bucking and a FireFly Buffer Rubber.
2. MadBull 455mm / 6.03tbb / w/ Flat-hopped Lonex 70 Degree Bucking and Home-Made Nub.
3. MadBull 509mm / 6.03tbb w/ Drop-in (unmodified) Lonex 70 Degree Bucking and standard
Note:
I always start out at 50 yards/150' and get everything dialed in. Dialed in is 10 of 10 shots/ Straight and Flat trajectory / On target. Target being a mailbox. This for proof of tight groupings.
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Edgi 509mm / 6.01tbb w/ Flat-hopped G%G Green Bucking and a FireFly Buffer Rubber:
- 460fps measured w/ .20's
Performance:
- Awesome at 50 yards with .30's, .36's. Straight and Flat.
- 60 yards: Ok, not good. 6/7 of 10 shots.
- 70 yards: Ok, not good. 5/6 of 10 shots
- 80 yards: Ok, not good. 5 of 10 shots
- 90 yards: Terrible: 1/2 of 10 shots
- 100 yards: No attempt.
Summary:
These results were very poor compared to what I have achieved with these same set-ups in previous DMR testing. Not sure exactly why. I simply could not get much lift of the bb's. This bucking may also be worn out from extensive previous use. Further testing required.

MadBull 455mm / 6.03tbb / w/ Flat-hopped Lonex 70 Degree Bucking and Home-Made Nub:
- 444.2 measured w/ .20's.
Performance:
Excellent at 50 yards with .30's, .36's, and .40's. Perfectly straight and flat.
60 yards: Good, but not great. 7 of 10 shots.
70 yards: Ok, but not good. 5 of 10 shots.
80 yards: Ok, but not good. 5 of 10 shots
90 yards: Poor. 3 of 10 shots.
100 yards: Poor 1 of 10 shots.
Summary:
Same as above.
These results were very poor compared to what I have achieved with these same set-ups in previous DMR testing. Not sure exactly why. I simply could not get much lift of the bb's. This bucking may also be worn out from extensive previous use. Further testing required.

MadBull 509mm / 6.03tbb w/ Drop-in (unmodified) Lonex 70 Degree Bucking and standard Nub:
452.5 measured w/ .20's
Notes:
Results posted are with .40's. I did test out .30's and .36's, which did well, but the .40's in this set-up were fantastic.
This was also done with this Hop-up Unit:
http://www.kwausa.co...wtopic=11031=
Performance: Pay Dirt!
50 Yards: 10 of 10 shots.
60 yards: 10 of 10 shots.
70 yards: 10 of 10 shots.
80 yards: 10 of 10 shots.
90 yards: 10 of 10 shots. Felt like I couldn't miss the target even if I wanted to.
100 yards: Not so great in terms of accuracy on target. 2 of 10 shots.I would say that 50% of the misses landed within a few feet of the target.I would say the other 50% of the misses went into BB Narnia Land.
It is a drop-in Bucking.


Summary:
I am continually impressed/amazed at the performance of the Lonex 70 Degree drop-in Bucking.
I will also be thoroughly testing this gun with other internal Gearbox and Hop-up mods and making the necessary changes to make it accurate at 300', effective at 330', and with an over-all range of 350+ with a max FPS of 450.measured using .25's.


Will keep this thread updated.

Edited by vanevery, 10 September 2013 - 03:35 PM.


#19 gcw360

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:02 AM

Thank you for the follow-up.  I for one am looking forward to additional follow-up. Would you post the brand of  BB's for each weight that you are using?  It looks like Madbull in the picture but clarification would be helpful.

#20 vanevery

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Posted 10 September 2013 - 03:30 PM

A few additional things on this day at the range.

Performance:

I report objectively how the days goes, good or bad.
You try enough new things, not everything is going to work just right the first time closing the gearbox on a new maintenance cycle.
This is why you test and tweak to get it right.
This day of testing was also:
- Without Barrel Stabilization.
- Without Barrel Lock-down.
- Without R-hop.
- Without ER-hop

Next time at the range, some different Hop-up approaches will be implemented for comparison testing.
This is really to put the Air Nozzle mod through its paces again and determine if the lack of lift experienced with a couple barrel set-ups was a result of boring out too much from the Air Nozzle, or Hop-up related.
Fully testing the Air Nozzle is important in order to move on with progression of this project.

BB's:
- .30's: KWA/KSC
- .36's: MadBull (washed)
- .40's: MadBull (washed)
- .43's: MadBull (washed) - Did not use these on this day, but had them with me.

A Few Points:
- .36's vs .40's
I specifically focused this day on comparing these two weights of bb's.
I had almost a full jar of each left and needed a definitive answer as to which one was better for my set-up.
I need to place an order for ammo as these were my last two jars of each weight.
Each Jar is empty now.

My theory was, with a lesser powered spring than the SP150 I was previously using in this gun, the .36's would be better suited for longer distance and possibly better accuracy. I was wrong on that.
The .40's were hands down the better of the two, by far.
They shot farther and were much more accurate.

I have never really been too impressed with the .36's in any of my DMR set-ups.
Some days they seem good, but too many days there are just accuracy and distance issues.
I have found that in lesser powered guns, they have done well, just not so much with my DMR specifically.
.40's almost never let me down unless it's a bad batch due to quality control.

Edited by vanevery, 10 September 2013 - 04:09 PM.





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