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KWA G36C discharging batteries?


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#1 FrankAR15

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:06 PM

It seems the G36c (2gx gearbox)  is discharging the battery extremely fast. Half a magazine or less and you can tell its discharging. Totally dead after about a mag and a half.
   We have 4 different batteries(NiMh), one brand new from Elite airsoft batteries. Same thing happens.

Also have tried all batteries in a KWA M4 RIS, and no abnormal discharging has occurred.

The G36c performance wise is working just fine(until battery dies)
  Is there anything in the G36c that would cause the battery to discharge extra fast?

Thanks for your help
Frank


#2 niko_gpsy

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 03:17 PM

Have you made any modifications to the G36? And what connectors are you currently running?

#3 FrankAR15

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:45 PM

Gun is completely stock. Small tamaiya connectors.
Gun is about 2 years old.

I guess there could be a chance that the battery charger is intermittently not charging batteries, but it is a smart charger and charging normal amount of time, and its never happened In the RIS.

The charger is an Elite 6i50
http://www.eliteairs...50-charger.aspx

Idk, is it even possible for the gun to drain the battery? Either that or there is extra stress at every trigger pull, causing you use excessive battery power?


#4 niko_gpsy

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:48 PM

A battery can drain at an accelerated rate due to many reasons.  I would first check the wiring for pinch or stripped areas.  Also make sure that the connectors are still in good shape through visual inspection.  And when you connect the battery to the gun make sure that the connector pins inside the tamiya are inserted all the way in.  Sometimes they can back out of the housing and make less than ideal connection which can also cause some drain on the battery.
Another area you may want to look at is the gun itself.  Does it sound sluggish or straining when you pull the trigger?  When your gears bind for whatever reason the motor will struggle to pull that spring and turn the binding gears thus requiring more power from your battery which can lead to a quicker power drain.
Finally you can also check the motor brushes and the commutator of the motor.  If it's excessively dirty you will want to clean it for efficient operation of your motor. You can look here for that tutorial.  http://kwausa.com/fo...?showtopic=8164

#5 gcw360

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 04:54 PM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 18 February 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

A battery can drain at an accelerated rate due to many reasons.  I would first check the wiring for pinch or stripped areas.  Also make sure that the connectors are still in good shape through visual inspection.  And when you connect the battery to the gun make sure that the connector pins inside the tamiya are inserted all the way in.  Sometimes they can back out of the housing and make less than ideal connection which can also cause some drain on the battery.
Another area you may want to look at is the gun itself.  Does it sound sluggish or straining when you pull the trigger?  When your gears bind for whatever reason the motor will struggle to pull that spring and turn the binding gears thus requiring more power from your battery which can lead to a quicker power drain.
Finally you can also check the motor brushes and the commutator of the motor.  If it's excessively dirty you will want to clean it for efficient operation of your motor. You can look here for that tutorial.  http://kwausa.com/fo...?showtopic=8164
That's what I'm thinking Niko.  I'm wondering if the motor brushes need a good makeover?

#6 Guest_Allizard_*

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:28 PM

My question is what type of batteries you are using and what type of charger.  I have never heard of a GUN cause a battery to discharge faster.    The only way verify this is examine the voltage and mAh after it's charged.  Or supposed to be charged.

#7 philsaudio

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 06:19 AM

Does your gun "drain" the battery if you install it and don't fire it? This is another kind of problem.

The word "drain" here is not to descriptive of what is happening with your system.

I think you gun needs a lot of current to fire, and unless your battery is fully charged it can not deliver what the gun needs. If your gun "drains" your battery and the gun won't cycle, and you take that, "drained" battery and put it in another gun and it works in that gun, your gun is requiring more current than the battery can deliver........ or the gun has so much resistance the battery can not deliver all of its current to the gun.

If your charger can tell us how many mAH your battery takes to recharge, that would be usefull information.

Peace

#8 Chuck S

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 07:37 AM

How many BBs is "a magazine and a half?"  150?  500?

Since the batteries work normally in another gun I'm guessing a high current draw or low voltage.  Low capacity battery and perhaps not fully changed will make it worse as will dirty connectors.  If the motor adjustment screw is tightened to the point of making the motor gear bind there will be a higher battery draw 'cuz the motor has to work harder than normal.  AEGs need periodic maintenance and the gearbox will wear and interior lubrication can dry out.

A 1500MAh battery running at 20 amps (right at the fuse limit) will only run for 4.5 minutes before the battery is completely exhausted and will slow long before that.  (It seems the batteries we use in our AEGs are a byproduct of the model aircraft hobby where 5 or 10 minutes of flight is about what they expect from a battery.)  4.5 minutes of motor time at 1000 rpm is 4500 BBs (in theory :) ).

-- Chuck

#9 FrankAR15

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:18 PM

Batteries we are using are EAB 9.6v 1500mah nunchuck and Intellect 9.6NiMh 1600mah.
Smart charger is Elite Airsoft Batteries Elite 6i50 smart charger
http://www.eliteairs...50-charger.aspx

Charger says full at 12.80v. We set the amps on the charger based on the Mah of the battery. Ex. 1500mah battery charge at 1.5 amps

We charge the batteries full, an hour before play.

A G36c mag holds about 420 bb's.  In a day of playing we might use 5-6 full mags.(around 2500bbs) G36 in past could run that on one battery. RIS still does. (With same batteries) and still not be dead.

A discharged battery from G36 will still be discharged in RIS.

The G36c has never been taken apart, so it's not possible that the motor adjustment screw could have tightened on its own, is it?
I have taken motor out of the RIS but never the G36c.

I will look up on the forum to see how to get to G36c motor.

And just to recap, the G36c shows a noticeable battery drain halfway through one mag(about 200bbs) and would be almost to completely dead after 2 mags(about 800bbs) depending on rate of fire, ect.

Let me know if any other info is needed

Edit-- ok, I looked around and searched and nothing( I suck). But can someone post a link to disassembly  G36c , especially to get to the motor?
I remember "hitman 07?" Posted a video in the past, but I can not find it.

Edited by FrankAR15, 20 February 2013 - 12:45 PM.


#10 Chuck S

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:20 PM

Have you taken the dead battery from the G36, charged it, and run more than 200+ rounds thru the M4?  I know some batteries only fit in certain compartments but this will isolate the battery.  Just let it dangle if it won't fit in the compartment.  A bad battery will still show a full charge but drop like a stone.

I doubt you have anyway to measure the amps but try shooting the gun with a 10a or 15a fuse and see if it pops.  Heck, try a 5a if 10 and 15 don't blow.  And see where they pop in your other gun.   The fuse is really there to protect the gun in the event of a short circuit.  The gun should not draw anywhere near 20 amps and yours seems to be drawing a lot of power or has a defective battery.

-- Chuck

Edited by Chuck S, 20 February 2013 - 04:21 PM.


#11 gcw360

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:59 PM

View PostChuck S, on 20 February 2013 - 04:20 PM, said:

Have you taken the dead battery from the G36, charged it, and run more than 200+ rounds thru the M4?  I know some batteries only fit in certain compartments but this will isolate the battery.  Just let it dangle if it won't fit in the compartment.  A bad battery will still show a full charge but drop like a stone.

I doubt you have anyway to measure the amps but try shooting the gun with a 10a or 15a fuse and see if it pops.  Heck, try a 5a if 10 and 15 don't blow.  And see where they pop in your other gun.   The fuse is really there to protect the gun in the event of a short circuit.  The gun should not draw anywhere near 20 amps and yours seems to be drawing a lot of power or has a defective battery.

-- Chuck
FYI, typical draw on a stock KWA 13amps at start-up.

#12 philsaudio

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:34 AM

I have been seeing a little more than 13 Amps to start any AEG with my 007 ammeter.  

A gearbox that runs full auto with 13 Amps ( a pretty efficient gun) will  take more like 25 amps peak to get the GB started for auto or semi. The instantanious peak my meter does not show is probably even double that if the battery can handle it.




http://forums.airsof...g96132#msg96132

Fuses are time AND current sensitive devices. This graph shows the current vs trip time for a 20 Amp AG3 fast blow fuse like those that ship with AEGs.
Posted Image



peace

Edited by philsaudio, 21 February 2013 - 06:17 AM.


#13 Chuck S

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:16 AM

Thanks for publishing the current data, guys.  There are several types of fuses ranging from instaneous to delay.  No problems in my KM4-CQB so I've not paid any real attention to what's there.

We'll have to wait for Frank's reply as I'm not certain if he's testing the same physical battery with a full charge in the two different guns.  There's a massive current draw in the G36 if he's only getting 200 rounds per charge or the battery is worn out.

-- Chuck

#14 FrankAR15

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 11:55 AM

Yes, we have mixed batteries with full charge on different occasions and there is no problems with those batteries in the M4.
   And to be clear, the G36 is not dead after 200 rounds. My son just informed me that It gets sluggish in between 1 mag to 2 mags ( drops rate of fire and trigger response.)
    After the 2nd mag it really does down. (Like full auto gets slower and slower in succession of every shot)
   These can vary, it doesn't always happen at the exact bb count.

Does anyone have the video link for breaking down the G36c?

#15 gcw360

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:38 PM

View Postphilsaudio, on 21 February 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

I have been seeing a little more than 13 Amps to start any AEG with my 007 ammeter.  

A gearbox that runs full auto with 13 Amps ( a pretty efficient gun) will  take more like 25 amps peak to get the GB started for auto or semi. The instantanious peak my meter does not show is probably even double that if the battery can handle it.




http://forums.airsof...g96132#msg96132

Fuses are time AND current sensitive devices. This graph shows the current vs trip time for a 20 Amp AG3 fast blow fuse like those that ship with AEGs.
Posted Image



peace
Thank you for clarifying!

#16 philsaudio

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 07:29 AM

More short videos with current, voltage and cycle rate simultainousely with sound of gun cycling.

If your video player supports scrolling backward and forward (scrub) you can watch the meters change in slow motion. Note the current stays relatively constant with the different batteries (15A) while the voltage while the gun is firing is most telling.

The test setup.
https://www.youtube....h?v=lSdQ202B23s

Testing some different voltage / battery types
https://www.youtube....h?v=Lrah1I8RblE

Peace

#17 gcw360

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Posted 04 March 2013 - 06:46 PM

View Postphilsaudio, on 04 March 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

More short videos with current, voltage and cycle rate simultainousely with sound of gun cycling.

If your video player supports scrolling backward and forward (scrub) you can watch the meters change in slow motion. Note the current stays relatively constant with the different batteries (15A) while the voltage while the gun is firing is most telling.

The test setup.
https://www.youtube....h?v=lSdQ202B23s

Testing some different voltage / battery types
https://www.youtube....h?v=Lrah1I8RblE

Peace
Very cool.  Thank you for posting.




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