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Green Gas And Propane?


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#21 dino325

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:42 PM

I for one bought the IA adapter with the intention of using a mix of GG and propane by switching back and forth..

#22 dino325

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostJatodude, on 16 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:


I'm not sure what about my post was indicative of me not realizing that.
Anyways, it was crowned "the smelliest substance in the world".  The human nose can detect one particle among 2.8 billion particles of air.  Hence the smell lol.
And the only thing I could find in it's description of it being somewhat corrosive was it binding with some transition metals.
I know some fundamental chemistry, and could probably make a guess at what kind of reaction takes place between the propane and the LM4 internals, such as the metal alloys and polymers if I had the chemical formulas for them. But a more advanced chemist could probably tell if there will be any such reactions between the two.  It could also be a reaction with the outside enviroment

Alternatively it could be a more physical problem rather than a chemical one.  Such as the Ethyl Mercaptan causing tolerance problems with build up.

This sort of practical application of chemistry is a bit out of my league though lol.


Straight over my head.. :scared:  heh

#23 Jatodude

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 05:51 PM

After briefly looking at the difference between Ethyl Mercaptan and Butane, the Ethyl Mercaptan boils at 95 degrees Fahrenheit, and the Butane boils at 209 degrees Celsius.  If Ethyl Mercaptan is in fact in Coleman propane, then at temperatures higher than 95 Fahrenheit it will boil and become a vapor.  A vapor has roughly 1000 times more volume than a liquid or gas.  So it could be that the gas expands VERY fast in high temperature environments.  Idk, just throwing it out there.

View Postdino325, on 16 May 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

I for one bought the IA adapter with the intention of using a mix of GG and propane by switching back and forth..
I got the same adapter, just using propane though.
Edit: This is important.  Don't mix the two. It's not enough lubrication.  You would need to add green gas, propane and silicon for the propane still.  If it's only half green gas, then it only has half as much of the lubrication it needs because if you don't add any to the propane it doesn't have any.

Edited by Jatodude, 16 May 2012 - 06:06 PM.


#24 R_King91303

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:02 PM

I have seen nothing but bad luck with my bro using propane on his non KWA gun pistol. I myself encountered a swollen hop-up rubber, so I take the word of the KWA C.S.I. experts...


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#25 niko_gpsy

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 04:53 AM

It's not some conspiracy where deals are made in dark smokey rooms between GG manufacturers and KWA.  KWA has records of thousands of guns that come in for repairs that was the result of use of propane.  As Allizard already mentioned, not all users of propane will experience problems but enough problems have been reported to be a cause for concern.  If you have never experienced problems using propane let me be the first to say that I am very jealous. :P

I read somewhere that Ethyl Mercaptan (EthaneThiol) is not only used to add odor to odorless gases like propane but is also used as an intermediate in manufacture of some plastics, rubbers and some coatings. So it can degrade plastic and rubber (synthetic and natural) materials processed using this organic compound.
And don't breath this in too much.  It can cause adverse health conditions such as poisoning and deficiencies in reproduction.  lol

#26 jaybirdritenour2

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:30 PM

View PostJatodude, on 16 May 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:


I'm not sure what about my post was indicative of me not realizing that.
Anyways, it was crowned "the smelliest substance in the world".  The human nose can detect one particle among 2.8 billion particles of air.  Hence the smell lol.
And the only thing I could find in it's description of it being somewhat corrosive was it binding with some transition metals.
I know some fundamental chemistry, and could probably make a guess at what kind of reaction takes place between the propane and the LM4 internals, such as the metal alloys and polymers if I had the chemical formulas for them. But a more advanced chemist could probably tell if there will be any such reactions between the two.  It could also be a reaction with the outside enviroment

Alternatively it could be a more physical problem rather than a chemical one.  Such as the Ethyl Mercaptan causing tolerance problems with build up.

This sort of practical application of chemistry is a bit out of my league though lol.
I was only expounding on your statement sorry.

Ok, but what about the Propane that already has some in it that is used for the Green Gas. I don't think is causes any extra build up either. But who knows I could be wrong. I didn't know that is was corrosive at all.

Edited by jaybirdritenour2, 18 May 2012 - 02:00 PM.


#27 Jatodude

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:54 PM

http://www.airsoft-i...een-gas-propane
This article needs to be read.  I think KWA should support propane and proper silicon lubrication.

#28 R_King91303

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostJatodude, on 17 May 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

http://www.airsoft-i...een-gas-propane
This article needs to be read.  I think KWA should support propane and proper silicon lubrication.

I already new that green gas is propane and/or propane derived. What the test fails to analyze is the additives in propane Vs. the additives in green gas; the test acknowledges that the scents used vary.


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#29 Jatodude

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:25 PM

View PostR_King91303, on 17 May 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

I already new that green gas is propane and/or propane derived. What the test fails to analyze is the additives in propane Vs. the additives in green gas; the test acknowledges that the scents used vary.


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It seems as though you took my post personal.  Anyways, they both are using some sort of scent additives.  The one in propane is much stronger as well. Humans are able to detect one in 2.8 billion particles of the propane scent aditive.  I am very doubtful that this is causing problems in GBB's without conclusive evidence.  Like Allizard said, some guns that have been using propane show no signs of internal damage.

Edited by Jatodude, 17 May 2012 - 02:27 PM.


#30 apacifico3

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 09:34 AM

View PostJatodude, on 17 May 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

http://www.airsoft-i...een-gas-propane
This article needs to be read.  I think KWA should support propane and proper silicon lubrication.

Hmmmm... Airsoft Innovations, the people that did this "scientific research", make propane adaptors, hence them saying propane and green gas are the same. Kinda biased information if I say so.

Chemical properties are similar, but not the same. And that's not even the scent additive. No tank of propane is identical to another: there may be more pressure, more additives, etc... Propane usually has a higher pressure than GG (hence the thicker tank/encasement and an emergency release valve) and since no two bottles of propane are the exact same (for the most part), there may be an offset of chemicals that aren't the best when used in gas guns. Other than the additives and corrosive issues KWA has encountered with repairs on gas guns that used propane, propane cycles harder than GG,  which may cause premature wear and breakage on certain parts within the gun.

In the end, I'd stick to GG for the 45 day warranty if anything does go wrong and switch to propane after the warranty period is up. That's what I plan on doing for my (money's) sake.

Edited by apacifico3, 18 May 2012 - 11:44 AM.


#31 Nitemare

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:30 PM

Have shot about 12 mags through my PTR with propane. Zero issues as of now.

#32 doug.nash

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 12:35 PM

I just fill my mags with Four Loko. Works great.

#33 Raptor72

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

for those who have used propane in the past.  How much silicone are you using?

#34 BENboBEN

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 02:03 PM

I just got my LM4 earlier today and have been playing with it all day. I have shot through about twenty mags with Worthington brand propane and it runs like a champ. No problems to report. This is the most fun I've ever had with an airsoft gun ever.

And to Raptor72, I usually use about two drops of thick liquid silicon (like the stuff KWA gives us or GHK silicon) for every 8ish mags that I fill. But you kind of have to experiment and find what works best.

#35 apacifico3

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 06:54 PM

You guys talking about your guns is making me sooooooo jealous. I cannot WAIT until I can preorder the LM4 PTS. Have fun and continue to update us with the propane use!

#36 diescheize11

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Posted 20 May 2012 - 07:34 PM

I'll be using propane when my warranty's up. Like someone said on the other propane vs GG thread, even if a part does break,  the amount of money you save on propane, actually equals up enough to buy an entirely new gun(from what I remember reading).

#37 jakattack1987

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Posted 27 May 2012 - 12:49 PM

have always used propane no problems ever with seals. I have never put a drop of silicon oil in my four mp7 mags and have never had a leak yet, ive had it for two years no problems with the gun at all and i use white lithium grease on moving parts, same goes for my usp.

#38 devil69

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Posted 01 June 2012 - 05:39 PM

View Postdiescheize11, on 20 May 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

I'll be using propane when my warranty's up. Like someone said on the other propane vs GG thread, even if a part does break,  the amount of money you save on propane, actually equals up enough to buy an entirely new gun(from what I remember reading).

Ive mentioned in different posts my KA Colt M4, i had that gun for about a week on propane, shot it maybe a mag a day, no silicone and my Oring was dried beyond belief from it. Hence why im buying 3 more with my LM4. The statement made is buy far true, I use only coleman propane, seems how I can buy two cans for only $3 at walmart. As opposed to four cans of GG for 5 times as much, in the end of the warranty I plan to go to propane on my LM4, but until i have all the proper tools, my LM4 is going to sit around the house when I get it. I plan to buy an abundance of KWA silicone for the KWA probably when I place my order for KWA BB's.

I use propane in my Glock 17 and the only problem I have with it thus far is the actual slide itself, not the mags or the internals of it. Everyone I play with uses propane; have been for a long time. Guess its all a choice of what you feel more comfortable with. But, KWA tested there guns with KWA parts (bbs, GG, silicone etc.) least thats what I'd expect, their guns worked fine. So, maybe if you use all KWA supplies on your KWA equipment, your better off? Just my two cents...

#39 yankee

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 10:45 PM

http://www.efunda.co...l_mercaptan.cfm

Ethyl mercaptan may be the culprit, but I don't have any information on what the bucking or o-rings are made of.  I would like to guess nitrile, but that's just wishful thinking in trying to solve a problem quickly.

Even if the parts are nitrile, what's the rate of degredation?  If you can find a way to get those parts bulk (McMaster Carr?) and treat them as expendable, what would be the total cost vs using green gas?  How many man hours are spent trying to lube your parts properly?  Could you find green gas for cheap in bulk?  So many mysteries and we only narrowed down a few variables.

Also, too much lube could cause:
  • swollen o-rings, leading to excessive wear on the rings from valve actuation and then leaks
  • swollen bucking, leading to jams and then broken parts
Anyone know what other additives could go into camp fuel propane bottles?  What about those big bottle propane BBQs or the gas station fills?

#40 kwaispro727

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:49 AM

Relating to the topic of green gas being so much more expensive, considering how expensive KWA's repair service can potentially be, if green gas is availible to you I think it is best to use it.  Labor itself is something like 50 dollars, which will buy you quite a bit of green gas.  I think another solution here is to rotate the two.  Perhaps use two mags of propane and then one of green gas to clear out anything bad.  Of course making sure you finish with green gas.  Mods/staff, does this sound like a feasible solution?




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