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G36c ROF CQB build -- lots of pictures--success and failures

G36 ROF Pre-2gx gears motor LiPO FPS 9mm bushings AOE premature

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#21 niko_gpsy

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:05 AM

Phil

You will get the same results if you were to use a GB halve shell from a G&G matched to a JG GB (And many many others). Many manufacturers can design their GB's slightly different for what ever reason.  It's not to say that these are not TM spec since no one has ever tried to take 2 different brand GB half shells and try to match them up like you are doing. LOL  
And I don't recommend using an SRC GB to adjust AOE for a KWA one.  If all the GB tolerances were the same, you would never need to buy sorbo pads to adjust for AOE.

#22 optimuskmg

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:30 PM

in one of your pictures you have what looks to be a bunch of clamps and stuff holding down your cylinder, your spring, your trigger, did you make that? if not where can i get one, that looks like it would lighten the stress factor of needing 8 hands to put a gb back together.

#23 philsaudio

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:27 PM

I am pretty much over the KWA-TM compatibility non-compatibility issue. I can live with a world where none of the guns are exactly clones of the original and every manufacturer trying some little change to differentiate their implementation from the next guys. If I wanted 100% compatibility I would just get a Tokyo Marui G36.

That being said I want to eventually get a TM G36 to round out my collection and own the original.

Issues like this are mundane compared to subjective things like " why do all 6 of my xyz brand and identical model microphones sound different?" or " why does this musical mixdown sound different in the car than in the house than in the studio ?" issues I deal with all the time.  At least the chrono does not lie, the audio file does not lie when counting shots per second and the paper does not lie when shooting targets.

Off the soapbox and back to reality. I replaced the 3/16 sorbo on my CG with a piece of 1/4" 70d sorbo. The cylinder head now has the sorbo and the original KWA rubber on it, and is about 2mm thicker than it was previously when all it had was the 3/16" sorbo and the origianl KWA rubber. Now the AOE looks like this on the full metal rack..

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If I put the green piston back in with the 1/4" sorbo. I needed to shave a little more off of tooth three, The AOE for the original green piston now looks like this with a camera. I believe it looks even better in real time with the eye.
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Decision time.

This gun was a pleasure to play with on Sunday with the 9.6V 24rps but the gun is a tad hot. I am not so sure that any faster  rps is such a good idea.

My goal right now is to keep the 9.6 v and lower the FPS a little , like 15- 20 FPS so my final FPS at optimum hop-up will be 385 FPS.

1) dont feel confident enough in my tech work to use that SS by three teeth 15 tooth purple piston. I am reluctant to risk catastrophic failure.

2) I have a couple of 3 tooth pistons on their way from the other side of the world. No telling when they will arrive. I can easily remove one more tooth and have a 2 tooth short stroked piston. This would cut my FPS the desired amount.

3) I can put a less powerful spring in with the green piston and use it like it is. But the rub on this is I think that is what caused my failure in the first place, two light of a spring.

I am leaning three, because catastrophy is less probable and I have all the parts.

Any opinions on the above or other options would be appreciated.

peace

#24 philsaudio

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

View Postoptimuskmg, on 08 August 2012 - 12:30 PM, said:

in one of your pictures you have what looks to be a bunch of clamps and stuff holding down your cylinder, your spring, your trigger, did you make that? if not where can i get one, that looks like it would lighten the stress factor of needing 8 hands to put a gb back together.

Funny you ask, I just posted that somewhere else.

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Magnet from a broken musical instrument speaker, some screws into the holes that were already tapped, a board and some clamps something like these.


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Then you can let your imagination fly.
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#25 niko_gpsy

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:48 PM

Now that AOE looks much better and it appears that the teeth are meshing much deeper. I would stick with green piston too since the AOE has been correctly adjusted your system should hold up for quite awhile. Good job on that.
And concerning TM specs, from experience I have learned to just deal with all these differences between each brands. I try to find good matches most of the time and sometimes end up just modifying parts to make it work. I just upgraded a Cyma AK for someone and I had to try 12 different nozzles and bucking combinations to find the best match. That was about $80 worth of parts that will just sit in my drawer. LOL

EDIT: Now that I had a second look, your piston is too far back.  It looks like comparing the before and after adjustment photos in your previous post that the piston seemed to have moved more than 2mm that I previously suggested.

#26 philsaudio

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:41 PM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 08 August 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Now that AOE looks much better and it appears that the teeth are meshing much deeper. I would stick with green piston too since the AOE has been correctly adjusted your system should hold up for quite awhile. Good job on that.
And concerning TM specs, from experience I have learned to just deal with all these differences between each brands. I try to find good matches most of the time and sometimes end up just modifying parts to make it work. I just upgraded a Cyma AK for someone and I had to try 12 different nozzles and bucking combinations to find the best match. That was about $80 worth of parts that will just sit in my drawer. LOL

I think my pistons from china are here. Will know tomorrow after the postman gets here. I may have two tooth short stroked on a 3 metal tooth piston tomorrow. Given that I will have to remove one more tooth. I have to say Niko, your advice to remove sector teeth from the release side goes against what just about everyone on "the internets" says. For clarity, most people advise to remove these teeth. The reason beingthe tappet cam wil have completed it's cycle and the nozzle will have been forward at the same point at the end of the cycle .  The same logic claims that if the teeth are removed from the other side, the release side of the sector, the last tooth which releases the piston, will come around sooner in the cycle and the air nozzle will have been fully closed for a shorter time and increase the chance of feeding problems.
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So all logic aside and letting experience speak, if I keep the M120, put the piston with 2 teeth removed in, which side of the piston shoule I take the second tooth from the sector? Right now my goal is 15-20 FPS reduction and running the 9.6v for now.

I am presuming this GB is still not ready for my 11.1V LiPO.

Thank you Nico.

Peace

#27 niko_gpsy

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 08:02 PM

I have tried in the past removing teeth from the pick-up side of the sector gear but no success. It had the worst feeding problems and timing was difficult to adjust.
If you look at the siegtek dual sector gear setup you can see that there are less teeth on the release side and no teeth were deleted from the pick-up side.
http://www.siegetek....ons/cyclone.pdf
I currently have my SR5 setup where the release side teeth were removed and it shoots great with no feeding problems at all after the timing on the air nozzle was adjusted by removing some material from the "fin" of the tappet plate and cutting some coils off the tappet spring so that the air nozzle springs forward slightly faster.

Now in your situation you have already removed one tooth from the pickup side so to be honest I don't know how it would affect feeding if more teeth are removed now from the release side (which is what I would recommend).

#28 philsaudio

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:51 AM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 08 August 2012 - 08:02 PM, said:

I have tried in the past removing teeth from the pick-up side of the sector gear but no success. It had the worst feeding problems and timing was difficult to adjust.
If you look at the siegtek dual sector gear setup you can see that there are less teeth on the release side and no teeth were deleted from the pick-up side.
http://www.siegetek....ons/cyclone.pdf
I currently have my SR5 setup where the release side teeth were removed and it shoots great with no feeding problems at all after the timing on the air nozzle was adjusted by removing some material from the "fin" of the tappet plate and cutting some coils off the tappet spring so that the air nozzle springs forward slightly faster.

Now in your situation you have already removed one tooth from the pickup side so to be honest I don't know how it would affect feeding if more teeth are removed now from the release side (which is what I would recommend).

Oh Yeah!
This observation brings the argument up to a new level. You just made a powerful point against conventional wisdom and may have shattered it.

Will get back to you soon.

#29 niko_gpsy

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

Hold everything!  LOL

It seems the conventional wisdom of SS'ing from the PU side of the sector seems to be correct way in that it is much simpler when adjusting air nozzle timing.  It required no modifications to the tappet plate and the tappet spring.  I had a chance to work on my CQ-SR project today where I SS'd from the PU side by 3 teeth to test out where I might have went wrong in my previous attempts.  Previous failure seems to be a result of modifying the tappet plate when SS'ing from the PU side. This did not allow the tappet plate to be delayed long enough for proper feeding.  I am getting a consistent 377FPS at 35RPS using an SP120.  Tomorrow I will test range to make sure that bb's are not falling short but so far chrono testing indicates proper operation.
My SR5 on the other hand was SS'd from the release side by 4 teeth where the tappet plate "fin" was cut by half and tappet spring shortened by 2 coils.  This setup is just fine and I have not suffered from feeding issues shooting at 38RPS at 365FPS using a 11.1V 15C 1400mah battery.
So far I have concluded that both setups work fine but for the sake of taking the simpler route I would opt to SS from the PU side for future projects.  One thing I would like to test out though is with SS'ing from either side, what the MAX RPS would be before it starts to suffer from feeding problems where some more modifications are needed.
So in theory I could have even taken teeth off from both sides and this would still work as long as timing was adjusted slightly by modifying the tappet plate and spring.

#30 vanevery

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:06 PM

Is there a tutorial on removing coils from the tappet plate spring?
Do you keep the stock loop/loops that attaches to the tappet plate and tappet plate post?

#31 niko_gpsy

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 04:54 PM

View Postvanevery, on 09 August 2012 - 04:06 PM, said:

Is there a tutorial on removing coils from the tappet plate spring?
Do you keep the stock loop/loops that attaches to the tappet plate and tappet plate post?

Taking coils off the tappet spring is much easier than you think. You just need 2 small needle nose pliers and a wire clipper.  Cut the amount you need with the wire clipper then make the new ends with the pliers by bending out couple of coils from the cut end.

#32 niko_gpsy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:18 AM

Here is a short video I made of the completed CQR.  More detailed video of the video will follow in a couple of weeks.  At this moment my "CQ-SR" is in test phase.
*And yes I did install the barrel nut backwards. LMAO  It was late when I did it and the gas block was giving me trouble.  :(

FPS: 377
RPS: 35-37
Guarder SP120
SHS 13:1 SS'd 3 teeth from PU side (no mods to the tappet plate or spring which is required if SS'ing from release side)
SHS HT motor
Azimuth piston full metal teeth w/ 3 teeth removed
Modify ported piston head
Type 1 cylinder
AOE adjusted with sorbo



#33 philsaudio

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 04:25 AM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 09 August 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

Taking coils off the tappet spring is much easier than you think. You just need 2 small needle nose pliers and a wire clipper.  Cut the amount you need with the wire clipper then make the new ends with the pliers by bending out couple of coils from the cut end.


I like to bend out the two coils before clipping the old coils off. This give me a little more to hold onto in the process. Once I have the two coils I bent out in the proper position I snip off the old loops that attached at the end. When the old loops are gone and the new loops are in position I then put a little solder on the new loops. This serves two purposes. First I can identify which tappet springs have been modified by looking at the solder on the spring, secondly, in theory perhaps, the heat from the soldering iron could possibly relive some of the bending stresses resulting from the modification.

#34 gcw360

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:43 AM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 10 August 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

Here is a short video I made of the completed CQR.  More detailed video of the video will follow in a couple of weeks.  At this moment my "CQ-SR" is in test phase.
*And yes I did install the barrel nut backwards. LMAO  It was late when I did it and the gas block was giving me trouble.  :(

FPS: 377
RPS: 35-37
Guarder SP120
SHS 13:1 SS'd 3 teeth from PU side (no mods to the tappet plate or spring which is required if SS'ing from release side)
SHS HT motor
Azimuth piston full metal teeth w/ 3 teeth removed
Modify ported piston head
Type 1 cylinder
AOE adjusted with sorbo


Very nice Niko!

#35 philsaudio

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 07:00 AM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 08 August 2012 - 04:48 PM, said:

Now that AOE looks much better and it appears that the teeth are meshing much deeper. I would stick with green piston too since the AOE has been correctly adjusted your system should hold up for quite awhile. Good job on that.
And concerning TM specs, from experience I have learned to just deal with all these differences between each brands. I try to find good matches most of the time and sometimes end up just modifying parts to make it work. I just upgraded a Cyma AK for someone and I had to try 12 different nozzles and bucking combinations to find the best match. That was about $80 worth of parts that will just sit in my drawer. LOL

EDIT: Now that I had a second look, your piston is too far back.  It looks like comparing the before and after adjustment photos in your previous post that the piston seemed to have moved more than 2mm that I previously suggested.


Niko:

I put it back together and it is just a tad over 400. I thought that perhaps the AOE adjustment would lower the FPS a little since now there is less air in the cylinder but I am not sure it changed at all.

Just for giggles I want to put the 35C 11.1vdc lipo on it and see how fast it would fire. Is there reason to worry about it at this point our should I wait till I can remove the second tooth from the 3 tooth piston that should be here later today?  What do you think?

peace

#36 niko_gpsy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 08:30 AM

What is your rof with your current setup?
Short stroking should lower fps by 10-15 for every tooth removed.
I would have to assume that you will be in the 30's with that battery but without significant piston weight reduction you may run into PE.  SS'ing would be a more definitive way of avoiding PE problems and you maybe ok with just total of 2 teeth removed but 3-4 would be better. Besides it would give you an fps that's more cqb friendly.


PS  I will be at SS airsoft this sunday testing out my new build (as long as my backyard test yields good results this saturday. lol) so if you want to meet me so we can discuss your build in person come by.  You can show me your build. :)

#37 philsaudio

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:05 AM

View Postniko_gpsy, on 10 August 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

What is your rof with your current setup?
Short stroking should lower fps by 10-15 for every tooth removed.
I would have to assume that you will be in the 30's with that battery but without significant piston weight reduction you may run into PE.  SS'ing would be a more definitive way of avoiding PE problems and you maybe ok with just total of 2 teeth removed but 3-4 would be better. Besides it would give you an fps that's more cqb friendly.


PS  I will be at SS airsoft this sunday testing out my new build (as long as my backyard test yields good results this saturday. lol) so if you want to meet me so we can discuss your build in person come by.  You can show me your build. :)

Hoping to play SS Sunday too. Last Sunday there were not so many people there.They tore down the wall and the place is now twice as big as last weekend. I don't know what it will be like in there though.

My current build it shooting 400 ish at 24 rps using the 9.6V Lonex A2 13:1 gears with that one short stroke off the pickup side and sector and the green piston and POM piston head that weigh 20 grams total. I have tenergy 35-50C 11.1V LiPOs.

Peace

#38 niko_gpsy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

I would think that you would be around 37-40rps with that battery.

I haven't been to SS in a long time and it would be interesting to see how the bigger field is set up. My biggest complaint with that place was the size of the arena.

#39 philsaudio

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:38 AM

This is over the top rps. I am really more interested in your opinion about if it will self destruct the way it is or should I wait to put the one more tooth short stroked piston in before trying this on the LiPO?

#40 niko_gpsy

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:59 AM

At 24 rps with your Swiss cheese piston setup I don't think you really needed to even SS so just that one tooth off the sector and piston is good. My main concern would be with AOE more than anything in your setup. So what I would like to see is where your final AOE adjustment is at.
I have a sorbo pad that is about 2mm thick so I can bring that this Sunday if you will be at SS Airsoft if you don't have that extra bit to get it just perfect.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: G36, ROF, Pre-2gx, gears, motor, LiPO, FPS, 9mm bushings, AOE, premature

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